Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Rosenritter
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You don't think the Jews might be familiar with someone who called Abraham father, had the law and the prophets, had symbols including purple and fine linen, who was separate from the dogs outside the gate?
Judah had five brothers, all daughters of Leah. Look at the prophetic description given for him specifically when Jacob gave his blessings. "Judah is a lion's whelp..." His garments washed in wine, the sceptre shall not depart from Judah.
The rich man is named Judah to symbolize the Jewish nation. The beggar outside the gates are the gentiles, the Jews called them "dogs."
When the Jew finds himself in a pagan Hades and sees the gentile comforted, grafted into Abraham's promise that he had assumed was his right by inheritance, what is his reaction? What is this parable really about?
Don't everyone speak at once now.
I knew all of that, but the parable also teaches the church about not committing the same error.
Also the parables never departed from the truths of scripture, so that they all contain the same pattern which applies to all ages.
The fact is that punishment is given to the wicked before they are destroyed, and it should be obvious that many have died the first death while deserved of punishment, who still are yet be punished according to Gods justice, and the casting of live people into the lake of fire is the end of them, not the beginning of eternal, conscious torment without end.
The parable teaches the conscious punishment of the wicked in the flame, after their raising from the dead, while the poor man is alive from the dead with Abraham.
This situation can only occur literally during the thousand years, which is why I pointed to Daniel ch 12--
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now show me a parable which is not to be fulfilled literally?
There are other things involved in this, but until one can see this truth above then there is no point going there.
This is why I asked elsewhere about being saved as by fire.
Think about it. Only overcomers will be in the first resurrection, and many of the "saved" will not be in it.
LA
Rosenritter
New member
The problem with your "interpretation" of that parable is that it would require us to nullify vast amounts of other scripture, written by inspired writers and even prophets, that tell us the dead are plainly dead and beyond consciousness. Christ is allowed to reference fictional settings that would be familiar to his audience without contradiction, because a parable is exactly that, a parable.
When this proverb is told by the prophet Isaiah, does it mean that trees literally will speak?
Isaiah 14:4-8 KJV
(4) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(5) The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
(6) He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
(7) The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
(8) Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Or what of the parable in Judges 9, does this mean that brambles and trees speak and elect kings among themselves? It even has fire in this one, so does that mean trees burn in hell? The cedars of Lebanon are threatened with fire, maybe it is a real story that ties into the previous Isaiah passage when "hell is raised to meet thee at thy coming?"
Judges 9:14-15 KJV
(14) Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
(15) And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
Sentient trees that speak are part and parcel of the pagan religions. Yet I am not confused when I read these passages. I know trees are not living creatures, without being specifically told by scripture. I know that the dead feel no pain, anger, love, and do not know that they are even dead... because I am specifically told by scripture.
If you are taking one element from a parable and using that to contradict multiple other passages of clear scripture, your interpretation is in error.
Here's one more parable for you:
Matthew 25:1 KJV
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Would you read this and think that the kingdom of heaven is about marrying ten virgins at the same time? Christ is speaking in parable, the elements themselves are not to be taken literally. We have Christ's own words, not in parable by speaking plainly, that they who are accounted worthy to inherit that world and the resurrection of the dead shall be like the angels, neither giving or receiving in marriage.
Matthew 22:29-30 KJV
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
To condense this into a solid rule of biblical interpretation, solid statements of scripture always overrule isolated elements of parables taken out of their original context. The dead are dead and do not rise not feel any thing until they are made alive. The fires of hell destroys both body and soul, leaving neither root nor branch, reducing the wicked to ashes. These things we are told in black and white, and sometimes even red.
But I will add one last thing. A question, or reflection, as you have it. Turn to the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew. There is the picture of Jesus in judgment, and two types of people. Some are told to enter into the kingdom, others condemned to hell fire. Both groups are surprised at the outcome!
Matthew 25:41-45 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
So my question is this: if these wicked were being tortured alive (or as conscious dead?) for a thousand years before the judgment at the end of the world, why do they express surprise at this judgment? Don't you think this would have sunk in what was happening during the previous thousand years? How old are you, and how long is a thousand years in comparison?
You miss that both the rich man and Lazarus are raised from the dead at the time.
I gave you scripture showing Christ returning and raising the dead of both the wicked and the righteous.
Many have it at the beginning of the thousand years, and that the entering into the Kingdom of God by the sheep do so mortally , that is they are not dead yet.
The text does not say they are gathered for judgment after their first death.
You also assume that all men not in Christ (by the Spirit)are regarded as the wicked.
You may also think that men of faith need never go through a fire.
Most of us go through a fire before our resurrection, but such is not the case for many whose names are written in the book of life.
You are not really able to follow this, and jumping to conclusions guided by your own theology.
Some others might understand it.
LA
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
We can not conclude that these sheep are Christians, but those who in the end times who receive the Christians, and will become Christians.--
These--
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
They are still mortal, they have not died at all.
LA
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
We can not conclude that these sheep are Christians, but those who in the end times who receive the Christians, and will become Christians.--
These--
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
They are still mortal, they have not died at all.
LA
Rosenritter
New member
The parable of Lazarus doesn't have anyone being raised from death. Read that again please? No resurrection from the dead, no judgment in that story.
Rosenritter
New member
That text did not, but other text does.
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
We know that resurrection must precede judgment, because how can the dead be judged unless they are raised? Daniel, John, and Revelation all agree in this.
Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 20:5 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I am not sure why you are thinking that people will be tortured for a thousand years, and then judged, but it seems a bit backwards. If the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years are finished, then you have the defined problem that scripture tells us that the dead are literally dead and beyond consciousness. That's a bit that's giving your theory a rough time, I think.
It is evident that after the rich man and Lazarus died, that they both then appear again in their full bodies and Abraham as well.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
2Sa 3:39 And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
LA
Pay attention please, I refer to the sheep going into the Kingdom at that time--
| Many have it at the beginning of the thousand years, and that the entering into the Kingdom of God by the sheep do so mortally , that is they are not dead yet. The text does not say they (the sheep)are gathered for judgment after their first death. |
Dan.ch 12:2 covers that.
It is because the wicked sent into the fire to be tormented, are not the general population who do not want to be saved, or the group who are saved but have been disobedient.
The indication in the scripture I gave is that God punishes justly each one, so the idea of a thousand years of torment for all is wrong, as is an eternity of punishment is wrong.
The casting of those whose names are NOT in the book of life, into the lake of fire, is the second death, but proportional punishment must occur before that event.
Going back to Match 25 sheep and goats, lets not confuse that with the descriptions of the last judgment in Mat.ch 13.
You can keep bringing up objections and we will see if you can shoot the view down.
Don't give up.
LA
Hi,
I have been speaking only of the time at and after Christ returns.
I agree with this teaching 100%--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_tdDoit_ss
LA
I have been speaking only of the time at and after Christ returns.
I agree with this teaching 100%--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_tdDoit_ss
LA
Another point is that the time of the thousand years is not necessarily one thousand years of length.
A study of the text reveals that.
It is in my words, the years of the thousand, or years of thousand.
Which of course gives possible reason for--
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
LA
A study of the text reveals that.
It is in my words, the years of the thousand, or years of thousand.
Which of course gives possible reason for--
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
LA
Rosenritter
New member
There is still no resurrection of the dead in that story. We are told how the resurrection will happen, all at once, the dead arise from the dirt, but the story isn't following prophesied events from scripture. It is following in the pattern of the Greek tales, because the setting is fictional.
It's like if I tell a joke about how an engineer is stuck waiting at the pearly gates and no one is there because Peter is on a lunch break. The devil comes and claims him, and before long things are working nicely down below, air conditioning is up again, escalators instead of broken stairs, they even have Wi-fi. God finds out the mixup and demands the engineer back, Satan refuses. God threatens, "I'll sue!" and the devil replies, "Where are YOU going to find a lawyer?"
See, I can tell that joke and no one gets confused thinking that I'm talking about a literal reality. It's a familiar fictional setting. I know that Peter is dead and buried until the resurrection, along with dead engineers and lawyers, and I still appreciate the joke. So before you run headlong with an elemental of a parable, you need to make really sure that your resulting interpretation isn't already contradicted by clear scripture.
Rosenritter
New member
This isn't about shooting anything down, because I haven't figured out how you got to your conclusion exactly. Where are you getting the idea that anyone is tormented for a thousand years? You realize that we have recorded examples of what happens when anything living is cast into a fire, right? Even the guards that took hold of Daniel's friends died from getting close to the furnace.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Ok, so we've gone this far already in the thread......
Ok, so we've gone this far already in the thread......
Just a reminder,
If God is Infinite LOVE, then the concept of ECT is illogical, irrational, insane....that's all there is to it.
We can split hairs, whether our interpretation of 'scripture' is exegesis/eisegesis til the cows come home,...you have to be true at last to the conscience and spirit of truth/wisdom that God gives to you if you ask for it, and come to a rational theology for yourself, or just join the insane asylum of other tormentors who are just adding to the cruelty and despair of the world, making a make-believe palace of pain in the afterlife, just because you deserve it
I've been travelling along with Timotheus and others here, posts being cataloged from the beginning here (blog portal with commentary). As far as where this thread is going?, or whats its accomplishing I don't know, except for those who are intellectually honest enough to look at the data including all passages in the Bible, and then their own conscience, reason, logic and spiritual intelligence to conclude or consider what is really true here, which harmonizes with God's eternal and infinite love and wisdom. This is for each seeker of truth to discover for himself. A lot has been shared in this thread for your own research, but you must make the discovery for yourself, for your own salvation or enlightenment.
Ok, so we've gone this far already in the thread......
Just a reminder,
If God is Infinite LOVE, then the concept of ECT is illogical, irrational, insane....that's all there is to it.
We can split hairs, whether our interpretation of 'scripture' is exegesis/eisegesis til the cows come home,...you have to be true at last to the conscience and spirit of truth/wisdom that God gives to you if you ask for it, and come to a rational theology for yourself, or just join the insane asylum of other tormentors who are just adding to the cruelty and despair of the world, making a make-believe palace of pain in the afterlife, just because you deserve it
I've been travelling along with Timotheus and others here, posts being cataloged from the beginning here (blog portal with commentary). As far as where this thread is going?, or whats its accomplishing I don't know, except for those who are intellectually honest enough to look at the data including all passages in the Bible, and then their own conscience, reason, logic and spiritual intelligence to conclude or consider what is really true here, which harmonizes with God's eternal and infinite love and wisdom. This is for each seeker of truth to discover for himself. A lot has been shared in this thread for your own research, but you must make the discovery for yourself, for your own salvation or enlightenment.
way 2 go
Well-known member
eternityJust a reminder,
If God is Infinite LOVE, then the concept of ECT is illogical, irrational, insane....that's all there is to it.
We can split hairs, whether our interpretation of 'scripture' is exegesis/eisegesis til the cows come home,...you have to be true at last to the conscience and spirit of truth/wisdom that God gives to you if you ask for it, and come to a rational theology for yourself, or just join the insane asylum of other tormentors who are just adding to the cruelty and despair of the world, making a make-believe palace of pain in the afterlife, just because you deserve it
I've been travelling along with Timotheus and others here, posts being cataloged from the beginning here (blog portal with commentary). As far as where this thread is going?, or whats its accomplishing I don't know, except for those who are intellectually honest enough to look at the data including all passages in the Bible, and then their own conscience, reason, logic and spiritual intelligence to conclude or consider what is really true here, which harmonizes with God's eternal and infinite love and wisdom. This is for each seeker of truth to discover for himself. A lot has been shared in this thread for your own research, but you must make the discovery for yourself, for your own salvation or enlightenment.
Gen_1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
God made us in his likeness and one attribute is eternal
which we are .
you underestimate your sin.
the greater the authority the greater the respect
it is THE authority of God
over your life you have rejected that is the unforgivable sin
which leads to the judgement of all your sins
Jesus believed in everlasting punishment
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rosenritter
New member
Are you sure that Eternal is the only attribute of God? What about creativity, free moral agency, or a capacity to love? Or why not go further and include omnipotent and all powerful?
If your summary of the image of a person is their clothes, money, or power, you have a very shallow view indeed and don't know them at all. The heart and mind define a person.
Created in the image of God no more means immortal than it means all powerful. You'd think you could figure that out given that we are called mortal and told that we can die.
Rosenritter
New member
So you have an example where throwing someone into a huge fire not only doesn't kill them, but prolongs their life indefinitely? Or for at least hundreds of years without food or water?