Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Rosenritter said:
That is an interesting romantic metaphor that may have application in those that would come when "all that thirst may drink" but it doesn't nullify the clear promises to destroy the wicked and unrepentant themselves. "Neither root nor branch" means the whole thing. Wheat and tares are likened to individuals, as with sheep and goats. Isaiah and Jesus speak of actual literal corpses being burnt up and consumed.
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Of course that 'all consuming fire' could preserve/purify a spirit or soul, OR destroy it,....that's the question. What is destroyed when a soul undergoes the 'second death' or 'DIES' in the ultimate sense? - just the iniquity or the soul itself as well ? - for a universalist,...the fire is the purifying agent and God's infinite Love ultimately triumphs to convert the soul back to its source, while in 'conditional immortality' a soul makes the final choice of self-destruction, where it truly perishes....is no more (disintegrated). There are different metaphysical insights into this 'process' we can speculate over, plus insights from other schools on the subject.
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rosenritter said:
That is an interesting romantic metaphor that may have application in those that would come when "all that thirst may drink" but it doesn't nullify the clear promises to destroy the wicked and unrepentant themselves. "Neither root nor branch" means the whole thing. Wheat and tares are likened to individuals, as with sheep and goats. Isaiah and Jesus speak of actual literal corpses being burnt up and consumed.
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This is a sad truth.

I always wonder if God will ever get over the children that perish.

Perhaps His memory of them is the Hell that God lives eternally with.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Nameless.In.Grace said:
This is a sad truth.

I always wonder if God will ever get over the children that perish.

Perhaps His memory of them is the Hell that God lives eternally with.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
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The memory of 'God' is a wonderful subject,....if he can forget sins, perhaps he can forget those who perish? But all exists in the super-consciousness of God, as Universal Spirit, so its an interesting subject to explore. I guess only the lost or forfeited potentials are grieved over temporarily, while new incarnations and opportunities for souls are given :)
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
freelight said:
Of course that 'all consuming fire' could preserve/purify a spirit or soul, OR destroy it,....that's the question. What is destroyed when a soul undergoes the 'second death' or 'DIES' in the ultimate sense? - just the iniquity or the soul itself as well ? - for a universalist,...the fire is the purifying agent and God's infinite Love ultimately triumphs to convert the soul back to its source, while in 'conditional immortality' a soul makes the final choice of self-destruction, where it truly perishes....is no more (disintegrated). There are different metaphysical insights into this 'process' we can speculate over, plus insights from other schools on the subject.
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Perish / destroy / consumed have the polar opposite meaning of heal / preserve / purify. We might as well suppose that north is south or black is white.
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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freelight said:
The memory of 'God' is a wonderful subject,....if he can forget sins, perhaps he can forget those who perish? But all exists in the super-consciousness of God, as Universal Spirit, so its an interesting subject to explore. I guess only the lost or forfeited potentials are grieved over temporarily, while new incarnations and opportunities for souls are given :)
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This would be necessary for "All" tears to be washed away. I always think of God when I see David crying over his loss of Absolum.

Even though Absolum tried to overthrow David, David was inconsolable for a time.

I'm certain God will have a time of being inconsolable over the loss of those that rise up against Him.

Thank you Freelight. Excellent thoughts. [emoji846]


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rosenritter said:
Perish / destroy / consumed have the polar opposite meaning of heal / preserve / purify. We might as well suppose that north is south or black is white.
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Above all, this has to be for God who has to deal with the pain of losing children.

I recognize that we only see a fraction of the big picture, but I am certain that God will ache from His pain of loss.

He will rejoice in His full union with His Bride, but He will show sorrow for loss.

This is why I can't understand why anyone would miss David Crying over Absolum and then insinuate the rescuer of All would allow eternal torture.

[emoji848]


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Nameless.In.Grace said:
Above all, this has to be for God who has to deal with the pain of losing children.

I recognize that we only see a fraction of the big picture, but I am certain that God will ache from His pain of loss.

He will rejoice in His full union with His Bride, but He will show sorrow for loss.

This is why I can't understand why anyone would miss David Crying over Absolum and then insinuate the rescuer of All would allow eternal torture.

[emoji848]


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
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'Eternal torture' all by itself is an insane concept, much less something that 'God' would will or uphold, since it is antithetical to his nature.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Choose life or death................

Choose life or death................

freelight said:
'Eternal torture' all by itself is an insane concept, much less something that 'God' would will or uphold, since it is antithetical to his nature.
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I know I've said over and over that ECT is immoral (here and elsewhere), but there are deeper implications, presuppositions involved in this 'condition' and how its imposed either by 'God' or by individual souls themselves, so its 'com-plex'.

For those interested in how the principle or law of 'karma' factors into things, you can check out this thread here :) - looking at the fact that 'actions' procude consequences, we look deeper into how 'choice' factors into our experiences and even ultimate destinies.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Rosenritter said:
Can't be that Way 2 Go, for it is written, that when a man dies he returns to his earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 KJV
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Seems to me that God has told us that man "IS" dust. Nothing in there about spirits being burned in fire, but if you chose to ignore what God has told you in that many words in scripture, and suppose that God's spirit is the actual man himself, it says it returns to God. I suppose you must think that means "everyone goes to heaven?" No telling what you're thinking.

Job 34:14-15 KJV
(14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
(15) All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psalms 104:29-30 KJV
(29) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
(30) Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psalms 146:3-4 KJV
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Mr. Go, if you want to convince anyone here that man has a "spirit" that lives and never dies, you need to present some sort of evidence. Not an element of a parable where the trees talk or rich Jews awaken in a Greek Hades. Not Catholic tradition or rulings of an ancient Pope, but actual scripture that 1) clearly states what you are trying to prove and 2) somehow manages to nullify the many passages in the rest of scripture that tells us that the dead are clearly dead, beyond the reach of thought, feeling, or consciousness.
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Your ignorance is overwhelming. It's refreshing to see a "Newbie" who doesn't know what they're talking about. It gives us ALL, hope.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Nameless.In.Grace said:
Marhig,

I found that the Judgment stopped, the minute I knew the Lord.


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I believe that judgement began when I knew God. Because I was in ignorance before, but now i see and know, and i have choices to make every day. How can I just do what I want to do, and not expect judgement? Do you not think that those who say that they love God, then do wrong before him will be judged?

There are many that say they are saved and going to heaven, who live wrong before God. Do you think that just because they think that they were saved on a certain date at a certain time, that God thinks the same if they are living wrong before him? And he's not going to judge them?

No, we can't profess to know God, then live by the lusts of the flesh as if we're still in the world. God is ever loving and merciful, but he won't be mocked.

And I'm not saying this about you, I don't know you, but there are those that think they are saved and going to heaven, yet their hearts are far from God.

1 Peter 4

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin.at us, what shall the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
 
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