Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

freedom from 'hell'......

freedom from 'hell'......

Luk 16:14**And being money-lovers, all the Pharisees also heard all these things. And they derided Him



on the forgiven side with the person of Abraham


Pharisees and the rich man are going to the flames
with the rest of the unrepentant.


there is no water for the people in the flames.
fire is fire but it is not burning up the rich man
some of the torment the rich man will feel is his own making



crying out to warn his brothers that there is eternal conscious torment



the fire is not consuming nor is it love

Jesus points out they won't believe him
they are going to hell and they still will not be convinced of Jesus authority after Jesus raises from the dead
there are going to hell


no repenting out of hell hence the chasm

Tsk Tsk,...Way 2 Go,....you're still stuck on a 'parable'. Time to get over it

Remember, 'God' is not an insidious monster bent on roasting people forever over some BBQ pit,....come of age. Time to move out of the Dark Ages.

:thumb:

ECT is insane.

Reconsider your caricature of 'God'.

 

[way 2 go]

Tsk Tsk,...Way 2 Go,....you're still stuck on a 'parable'. Time to get over it

Remember, 'God' is not an insidious monster bent on roasting people forever over some BBQ pit,....come of age. Time to move out of the Dark Ages.

:thumb:

ECT is insane.

Reconsider your caricature of 'God'.

you underestimate your sin.

 

[Rosenritter]

you underestimate your sin.

Didn't Jesus also have a parable about returning the punishment that someone wanted to inflict on someone else back on them instead?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Is the fire not so hot for some?

The only way which takes into account all verses is punishment before annihilation.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


and if any think that babies of the wicked (those who have no faith in Christ)will not be cast into the lake of fire, then you are not well read of the Bible.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

Is the fire not so hot for some?

The only way which takes into account all verses is punishment before annihilation.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


and if any think that babies of the wicked (those who have no faith in Christ)will not be cast into the lake of fire, then you are not well read of the Bible.

LA

So if it is demonstrated that is not the "only way" you would have to be willing to reconsider and-or be less dogmatic?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So if it is demonstrated that is not the "only way" you would have to be willing to reconsider and-or be less dogmatic?

You are welcome to present it, but no scriptureless theories please.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

You are welcome to present it, but no scriptureless theories please.

LA

Please do me this favor and clearly state your premise. I was rereading your last couple posts and I am not sure what you mean. "Most" will be destroyed by fire? A separate "eternal flame" besides hellfire?

In the meantime, didn't you forget some relevant context here?

Matthew 10:14-15 KJV
(14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
(15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Because there are similar patterns here as well:

Matthew 11:21-24 KJV
(21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
(22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
(23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

First, the punishment is death and destruction in the lake of fire, therefore it cannot be separated from the fire. Regardless of whether the judgment itself is over quickly or excruciatingly long, the wages of sin are death, and the punishment is eternal. A temporary experience cannot be an eternal punishment, by sheer definition.

Second, I think you may want to consider passages like Matthew 11:21-24 (above) that tells us that "more tolerable in the day of judgment" is linked to the potential for repentance. "They would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes" Jesus said.

I propose that the judgment may be more tolerable for those with a heart to repent in sackcloth and ashes. Read Revelation 20 again, and as it is written it does appear that some of those that stand in that judgment are not cast into the fire, and enter into that holy city. I would say that is indeed more tolerable.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I have no doubt that many will suffer in an eternal flame after their death and raising from the dead, but they most certainly will be completely destroyed after that in the lake of fire.

LA

Is the fire not so hot for some?

The only way which takes into account all verses is punishment before annihilation.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


and if any think that babies of the wicked (those who have no faith in Christ)will not be cast into the lake of fire, then you are not well read of the Bible.

LA

Please do me this favor and clearly state your premise. I was rereading your last couple posts and I am not sure what you mean. "Most" will be destroyed by fire? A separate "eternal flame" besides hellfire?

In the meantime, didn't you forget some relevant context here?

Matthew 10:14-15 KJV
(14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
(15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Because there are similar patterns here as well:

Matthew 11:21-24 KJV
(21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
(22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
(23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

First, the punishment is death and destruction in the lake of fire, therefore it cannot be separated from the fire. Regardless of whether the judgment itself is over quickly or excruciatingly long, the wages of sin are death, and the punishment is eternal. A temporary experience cannot be an eternal punishment, by sheer definition.

Second, I think you may want to consider passages like Matthew 11:21-24 (above) that tells us that "more tolerable in the day of judgment" is linked to the potential for repentance. "They would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes" Jesus said.

I propose that the judgment may be more tolerable for those with a heart to repent in sackcloth and ashes. Read Revelation 20 again, and as it is written it does appear that some of those that stand in that judgment are not cast into the fire, and enter into that holy city. I would say that is indeed more tolerable.

You see I did take those verses into account.

The rich man was only tormented in the flame but nothing is said of his continuing in it forever, and It is most doubtful that the righteous will observe the punishment of the wicked forever.

God is a consuming fire, and there is much to show that some will suffer a burning of some sort when their works are burnt up, yet be saved through it, but not applicable to the rich man of Luke.

Then there is a fire of sorts which burns up our works even before we die in some cases.

There is also the punishments delivered us by man at the Lords direction.

However the judgment being more tolerable for some than for others, suggests a varying period and or intensity of punishment before being cast into the lake of fire at the second death.

I can not see any punishment of children of the wicked and it is entirely possible and I think probable that the children of the wicked will not even be in the judgment nor ever raised from the grave.

The children of the righteous is another matter.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

You see I did take those verses into account.

The rich man was only tormented in the flame but nothing is said of his continuing in it forever, and It is most doubtful that the righteous will observe the punishment of the wicked forever.

God is a consuming fire, and there is much to show that some will suffer a burning of some sort when their works are burnt up, yet be saved through it, but not applicable to the rich man of Luke.

Then there is a fire of sorts which burns up our works even before we die in some cases.

There is also the punishments delivered us by man at the Lords direction.

However the judgment being more tolerable for some than for others, suggests a varying period and or intensity of punishment before being cast into the lake of fire at the second death.

I can not see any punishment of children of the wicked and it is entirely possible and I think probable that the children of the wicked will not even be in the judgment nor ever raised from the grave.

The children of the righteous is another matter.

LA

Except that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable by definition. The Greek hell called Hades does have torment in flame, and the word hell that Jesus used in that parable was from that Greek Hades. When speaking of hell outside of that single parable the effects are consistent with death and destruction.

I am pretty sure that Revelation says that the small and great stand before God. Children are small. Children also have capacity for good and evil. Perhaps there may be an element of judgment that you have overlooked. What do you believe is the purpose of judgment? Why raise those who were not saints at all, do you suppose?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Except that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable by definition. The Greek hell called Hades does have torment in flame, and the word hell that Jesus used in that parable was from that Greek Hades. When speaking of hell outside of that single parable the effects are consistent with death and destruction.

eventually yes, but not immediately.

I am pretty sure that Revelation says that the small and great stand before God. Children are small. Children also have capacity for good and evil. Perhaps there may be an element of judgment that you have overlooked. What do you believe is the purpose of judgment? Why raise those who were not saints at all, do you suppose?

defending a simplistic view will not give the full truth.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

defending a simplistic view will not give the full truth.
LA

You've never given it much thought about why the dead will be raised? I understand that you may accept it, but have you considered what it is meant to and could accomplish?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You've never given it much thought about why the dead will be raised? I understand that you may accept it, but have you considered what it is meant to and could accomplish?

You make it obvious that you have not taken my posts seriously.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

also-

These after or near death experiences (and there are many of them)are meant to warn people of a future event of being punished by fire which precedes being burnt up in the lake of fire.

That is my understanding of it.

If you are thinking all shall be saved by fire then that is just plain wrong.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

also-

These after or near death experiences (and there are many of them)are meant to warn people of a future event of being punished by fire which precedes being burnt up in the lake of fire.

That is my understanding of it.

If you are thinking all shall be saved by fire then that is just plain wrong.

LA

So those near death experiences of Pagan gods are valid also? I also know at least two people that recall past life experiences. Are these valid? Why or why not?

After you address that can of worms, I would point out that I personally have had three near "death experiences" and from my experience that experience was "nothing." It was a total cessation of consciousness, just like scripture says.

I would add to that that the "nothing" experiences far outnumber the "something" experiences.

So how do we sort these out? Do we let them vote?

 

[Rosenritter]

You make it obvious that you have not taken my posts seriously.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

LA

But why are they raised? I have that passage practically memorized as I am sure you do as well.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

But why are they raised? I have that passage practically memorized as I am sure you do as well.

The answer is in the text.

I will not be responding any further to you unless you can bring up some further verses to consider.

LA

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus tells the Pharisees about Abraham, Lazarus
and the rich man and Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
do you believe Jesus ?


Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
...
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
...
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
...
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus tells the Pharisees about Abraham, Lazarus
and the rich man and Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
do you believe Jesus ?


Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
...
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
...
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
...
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

:first:

 

[daqq]

Jesus tells the Pharisees about Abraham, Lazarus
and the rich man and Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
do you believe Jesus ?


Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
...
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
...
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
...
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Why do you keep cutting off the conclusion of this passage even after it has been shown?

Luke 16:31 - 17:4 KJV
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
01 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! [Matthew 18:7]
02 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones [Matthew 18:10].
03 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
04 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Matthew 18:7-12 KJV
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! [Luke 17:1]
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; [Luke 17:2] for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost [Matthew 10:6, Matthew 15:24].
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? [Matthew 10:6, Matthew 15:24]

Lazarus is a "little one", (in this context) . . . :chuckle:

 

[Rosenritter]

The answer is in the text.

I will not be responding any further to you unless you can bring up some further verses to consider.

LA

It really seems like you are avoiding the question. I am not being hostile. Why did Paul say he believed in the resurrection, both the just and the unjust? Why raise the unjust?