The majority of Christianity believe in an eternal Hell of torture. How could all of those people be wrong?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Lack of Bible study.
According to Jesus Christ, the wide road is full of people headed to destruction. The majority is on that road. How could all of those people be wrong? Yet they are. Truth is not determined by counting heads.
I don't understand. There are many books written by theologians on the matter. The majority of mainstream churches teach that the fear of eternal hell is a mercy. Isn't God scary and angry?
Rosenritter
New member
Evil Eye, avoiding your question for the moment, do you feel that God is scary to you and that he is best described by anger?
My pastor reads all the passages where people are going to hell, all of the time. He explains that we should be extremely careful, because God kills people, all of the time and He hates many people because of their sins.
I don't want to burn in hell. I'm very worried about this. I tell people to do right and hate all the people that my pastor tells me to and all of the kinds of sinners that are going to hell, but it is starting to drive me away from God.
Rosenritter
New member
So you are being told that if you are hateful enough to others that God will not hate you, and this isn't helping you to understand God in a good way?
I don't know what I'm trying to say. All of this stuff is starting to mean less and less to me. I just know that when I read about Jesus, things seem way different then when I hear my pastor speek. I'm just a person. He's a man of God. How can God be anything but anger. It talks about people dying, God hating this and God hating that.
And yes, I'm expected to hate people that I don't even know, because the bible says they will burn in hell.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God is Love
God is Love
Hi EE,
If you've followed this thread any, you'll learn a lot. First of all, it sounds like a revelation of God's Infinite LOVE is lacking in your church, and the focus is more on fear and hate. That would be a toxic atmosphere, very antithetical to the Holy Spirit's Presence, since the Spirit reveals truth, and inspires thru love, for the divine will is for LOVE to be fulfilled in all souls, in all ways possible, even within the providence of free will. 'God' who is Love would never impose or enforce an eternal torment or suffering on any soul for all eternity, for this is totally against God's very nature. Did you forget that God is love? Has the Holy Spirit shed the love of God abroad in your heart? That would be the primary focus, getting an understanding/revelation of divine grace.
What are the fruits of the Spirit?
I've elaborated on the illogic and insanity of ECT (eternal conscious torment) here and elsewhere. How much of this thread have you actually read so far?
God is Love
Hi EE,
If you've followed this thread any, you'll learn a lot. First of all, it sounds like a revelation of God's Infinite LOVE is lacking in your church, and the focus is more on fear and hate. That would be a toxic atmosphere, very antithetical to the Holy Spirit's Presence, since the Spirit reveals truth, and inspires thru love, for the divine will is for LOVE to be fulfilled in all souls, in all ways possible, even within the providence of free will. 'God' who is Love would never impose or enforce an eternal torment or suffering on any soul for all eternity, for this is totally against God's very nature. Did you forget that God is love? Has the Holy Spirit shed the love of God abroad in your heart? That would be the primary focus, getting an understanding/revelation of divine grace.
What are the fruits of the Spirit?
I've elaborated on the illogic and insanity of ECT (eternal conscious torment) here and elsewhere. How much of this thread have you actually read so far?
A few pages of it. I need to think about what you have said.
Ben Masada
New member
Because they don't read the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. According to the allegorical Genesis account of Creation, the Lord stopped short to share the attribute of eternal life with man because man could not live forever. And that was the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden; to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's in Genesis 3:22,23.
Rosenritter
New member
If you see someone say one thing, and Jesus another, go with what Jesus said instead. He already predicted that there would be people who would arise, even claiming to acknowledge him, but preaching a different gospel. You can't trust that someone is representing Jesus correctly just because they claim to be a man of God.
Mat 24:4-5 KJV
(4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
If you are hearing a gospel that requires you to hate, compare that with Christ's commandments that consist of love. In fact, Jesus even warned that if we do not forgive one another, our own forgiveness may be revoked (see Matthew 18:32). God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9) and destruction of the wicked is a last resort. Even then that destruction is an act of finality, of actual literal destruction, not a preservation of never ending misery. God isn't harboring that type of hatred, and neither should we.
Gal 5:19-23 KJV
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Mat 22:37-40 KJV
(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(38) This is the first and great commandment.
(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I could say more, but there's only so much that one should put in a single post at once.
This is more in line with Jesus, who is God. I appreciate this. I will reflect on the matters and passages that you have posted. I have a lot to think about. It almost makes it look kind of bad for my pastor and everyone who hates people they don't know, just because a bunch of people agree on the matter.
I am more inclined to agree with your words.
Ben Masada
New member
Not so fast Evil.Eye, Jesus was not God. Jesus was a Jew, born as a Jew, and died as a Jew. God was neither born nor has ever died. For a Jew to claim to be God, he is either a mental case or be claimed by another, especially a Christian.
Rosenritter
New member
Ben, Jesus was before Abraham, and when asked how he had power over the devils he said that he was there when Satan fell from heaven. He forgave sin and healed the sick and brought the dead to life. He accepted worship and did not criticize nor forbid someone who called him God. In Revelation he reveals himself using the most exclusive names of God as his Own. That's good enough for most people to accept who he was.
Let's not fight about this here and now. Evil Eye is dealing with a potential paradigm shift that has some pretty important implications.
Ben Masada
New member
Yeah, but you are using a Jew to teach against his own Faith which happens to be the same as mine. All you have said above, you missed to inform us that it is by faith and not factual. You have just been persuaded to believe by faith and not by facts. Evil Eye is a new voice coming in and learning the wrong side of the story. Do you yourself believe that Jesus was a Jew? Why teach the new-comers about Jesus as if he was Paul? This was the one who created Christianity, an anti-Jewish religion, not Jesus.
Rosenritter
New member
Ben, you are attempting to insert this into the wrong forum. Can you honestly persuade me that what you are saying influences the resolution of "Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical" one way or the other?
Evil Eye entered this forum and he can choose to enter others. On this topic he said that he believed Jesus was God. I didn't have to twist his arm or "deceive" him into believing this. The reason it's such a widespread belief is because it's said so many different ways throughout the whole scripture, even starting in Genesis and Chronicles, permeating book after book all throughout Moses and the prophets, the psalms, gospels, epistles, and Revelation.
John 5:39 KJV
(39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
If you know me then you also know that I am not one to merely support a doctrine because it is "popular" or "traditional." I am concerned first and foremost with what the scripture says. If you wish to persuade me, show me from scripture. Prove it to me. You can send private message or use my personal email, or invite me to a thread of your own making. But this is not the right location for that discussion.
But I am not sure why you think that Christianity is an "anti-Jewish religion" ... unless you consider equality "anti-Jewish." Christianity does not hold one's race or blood or sex in any regard, as we are all equal in Christ Jesus, it is no more "anti-Jewish" than it is "anti-Korean" or "anti-Irish."
Galatians 3:26-29 KJV
(26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Colossians 3:11 KJV
(11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Romans 3:1-2 KJV
(1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
(2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
If you think that the Jew should have special favor and that other peoples should be condemned with inverse favor, then perhaps Christianity is "anti-Jewish" in that regard. I hope that is not what you were implying, and I will assume that it was not. Talk to me personally or invite us to a proper thread, but let's keep on target on this thread at least. This thread is about the nature of God's character, about who he really is, whether he really can be described the God of Love, or whether he is the God of Infinite Torment.
Jesus is only understood to be God by those who read and believe the Bible.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Look at Jesus. Can you read about Him and imagine that He likes to torture people? God is love and torture is the opposite of love.