Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Grosnick and all madists believe you can live anyway you want and still be saved, as long as you believe some of Paul and avoid all other parts of the Bible.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Last time I checked, Paul or was it 'Saul'? was not the Savior.
1 Corinthians 1:13-14 KJV
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
3
1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
3 For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.
4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
1
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
"MAD control to Major Tom, Umm, I think we have a problem . . ." :rotfl:
marhig
Well-known member
Well that's just MAD!
No really, that's crazy thinking, and it doesn't say that in the Bible! And some of Paul isn't enough, it's believing in all of Jesus! Paul preached the gospel of Christ.
Hebrews 6
For*it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
James 1
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death
No one can pluck us from the father's hands, but if we turn away and are drawn by temptation and carry on sinning, then we are carried away by our own lusts. And that death in James, is being dead to God again, a dog returned back to its own vomit. A sow wallowing in the mire, us going back to our lives in the flesh.
As I said, God is love, not he won't be mocked, if we truly love him, we'll deny ourselves and do his will.
And once we do, there's no peace like it, the peace we have in our hearts when we do Gods will is unbelievable, when sin is going and the spirit of God is growing and Gods love overwhelms our hearts and we feel that love of Christ within. It's amazing! My whole heart and life has changed, and I love God deeply for blessing me, and giving me a chance to know him!
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What Scripture passages support the doctrine of eternal torment and what passages support the doctrine that the wicked will be destroyed?
What's Oddball about that?
Rosenritter
New member
MichaelCadry has issued a challenge that "Eternal Conscious Torment" is true and biblical on the Creation vs. Evolution thread here. I invited him to this board but he was pretty insistent that he wanted to discuss it on his thread. There would be a difficulty of persuasion from scripture seeing that he claims to have visions and revelations from God that tell him Eternal Conscious Torment and Immortal Souls are true, but I am asking if he would be willing to confine his proofs to scripture and abide by what comes out in the wash.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Keeping to a thread's subject.....
Keeping to a thread's subject.....
Well, I've contributed to Michaels thread earlier in its evolution (here),....and proposed that 'creation' and 'evolution' are basically one and the same,.....'creation' is the progressive evolution of life and all its relationships. Creation/Evolution.....all the same round...just different nuances.
I would discuss it here, since we've covered so much here alerady. It wouldn't make much of a dent in his theology as those challenge his personal beliefs, while besides all the 'theology' he'd just be a happy ole chum like he usually is. Actually all the religious stuff clutters the field as it were, as he usually worries over my salvation and sees me veering far away from God and Jesus with my liberal theology - so,...I think this thread has got it covered.
Keeping to a thread's subject.....
Well, I've contributed to Michaels thread earlier in its evolution (here),....and proposed that 'creation' and 'evolution' are basically one and the same,.....'creation' is the progressive evolution of life and all its relationships. Creation/Evolution.....all the same round...just different nuances.
I would discuss it here, since we've covered so much here alerady. It wouldn't make much of a dent in his theology as those challenge his personal beliefs, while besides all the 'theology' he'd just be a happy ole chum like he usually is. Actually all the religious stuff clutters the field as it were, as he usually worries over my salvation and sees me veering far away from God and Jesus with my liberal theology
- so,...I think this thread has got it covered.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
'Oddball' might mean something that is outside one's field of interest or intellectual acumen
If God tells him eternal torture is true he should go with that. I rely on the Bible to know about this stuff.
Rosenritter
New member
Deu 18:21-22 KJV
(21) And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
(22) When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Jesus never lied or spread lies
Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom.
The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
no lies here just Jesus teaching
Pharisees and all unrepentant
of their future standing in the flames.
Luk 16:25**But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Luk 16:26**And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there.
Jesus related how Abraham told the rich man he was
receiving justice
Luk 16:27**And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28**for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29**Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.
Jesus says here for those of us who believe
in eternal conscious torment that those who don't will not be persuaded that
there is eternal conscious torment to be avoided
they will not believe Moses and the Prophets
or one rising from the dead.
Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom.
The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
no lies here just Jesus teaching
Pharisees and all unrepentant
of their future standing in the flames.
Luk 16:25**But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Luk 16:26**And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there.
Jesus related how Abraham told the rich man he was
receiving justice
Luk 16:27**And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28**for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29**Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.
Jesus says here for those of us who believe
in eternal conscious torment that those who don't will not be persuaded that
there is eternal conscious torment to be avoided
they will not believe Moses and the Prophets
or one rising from the dead.
The Rich man is the Pharisee that trusted in his self righteousness and judged.
The poor man that is named is none the less a full blown sinner.
This ties to the tax collector and the Pharisee.
The water is Jesus and the fire is jealousy and the agony of understanding God's love after death.
The sinner is saved and the Self Righteous man is crying out to warn his brothers.
Jesus then points out that his brothers won't believe in His consuming fire (Love) when Jesus, whom they will have killed, resurrects.
The casm is symbolic of how the man that works his way to heaven in flesh, can't begin to make it.
But good old Lazerous the sinner was clinging to the Love and Mercy of God.
It's Cain and Abel all over again.
One toiled in soil, flesh and the other trusted the lamb.
Cain was Jealous!
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I have no doubt that many will suffer in an eternal flame after their death and raising from the dead, but they most certainly will be completely destroyed after that in the lake of fire.
LA
God would never give a man eternal torture- this is something that quite frankly just makes Christianity look bad, making retribution so abysmally black and white.
A person will reap what they sow in the afterlife, and that is that. The official Church teaching of Hell is not one of fire and brimstone, but a place commensurate to one's sins.
In other words, you get what you deserve_
Drop your Dark Age heresy.
A person will reap what they sow in the afterlife, and that is that. The official Church teaching of Hell is not one of fire and brimstone, but a place commensurate to one's sins.
In other words, you get what you deserve_
Drop your Dark Age heresy.
Rosenritter
New member
The official teaching of the scripture is that hell is a place of destruction, darkness and silence, that the wicked shall be "burnt up" and be no more.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Luk 16:14**And being money-lovers, all the Pharisees also heard all these things. And they derided Him
on the forgiven side with the person of Abraham
Pharisees and the rich man are going to the flames
with the rest of the unrepentant.
there is no water for the people in the flames.
fire is fire but it is not burning up the rich man
some of the torment the rich man will feel is his own making
crying out to warn his brothers that there is eternal conscious torment
the fire is not consuming nor is it love
Jesus points out they won't believe him
they are going to hell and they still will not be convinced of Jesus authority after Jesus raises from the dead
there are going to hell
no repenting out of hell hence the chasm
Rom_11:11*... salvation has come to the gentiles to make the Jews jealous.
You shared your perspective in such a way that respected what I had written and expressed your understanding.
Well spoken.
Two diametrically different views in one post.
Good stuff.
Peace and Respect way 2 go
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Crucible,
I'm impressed!
Absolute Respect!
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way 2 go
Well-known member
you underestimate your sin.
the greater the authority the greater the respect
the greater the authority that you have transgressed
the greater the sin.
Num 15:32**And while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day.
Num 15:35**And Jehovah said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.
Num 15:36**And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died,
even as Jehovah commanded Moses.
this will be the punishment of the unrepentant
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
you don't believe it and probably never will
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.
Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life