Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

The question is not whether Paul has a proper understanding of those things, but rather, do we understand Paul? Paul, who was Saul, no doubt knows of what he speaks. So according to the context you must first do the will of Elohim. For if not then how can you understand if you are not doing what you know is the will of Elohim? Only those who do His will can even begin to understand; for if not, then you cannot receive the Promise. So what then is the will of Elohim? Yeshua expounds the will of Elohim in all his parables, allegories, idioms, sayings, and doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Paul clearly tells us that he preaches the commandments of Messiah, and that the will of Elohim, if we do it, even concerns our own sanctification. And these things concern cutting off sin from our own "members", that is, to "mortify the deeds of the body", and to "mortify your members which are upon the land", every man has his land with its house-body-temple and its "fields" roundabout. The fields gain tares along the way which are bundled for burning and cast into the fire at the end of your age in the summer of your harvest, (no man knows the day, but the Father only). And when the Master comes will he find faithfulness in your land? The man is the Land, both the adamah-soil of the heart, (Parable of the Sower), and the erets-land outer bounds "commons-profane" outer boundaries of the temple, ("the flesh"). So then, with the mind I serve Torah of Elohim, (Horeb of above), but with the flesh the Torah of sin and death, (Sinai of below), and cut off the evil doers from the Land which the Father has given me to shepherd while the House Master is away in a far journey, (Mark 13:34-37). But if an evil shepherd be allowed to rise up in your dominion, and shall begin to smite the fellow members and house servants of your household, and to eat and drink with the drunken; beware, for the Master shall come in a day when he looks not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him in half, and he will appoint the hypocrite his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

And this is the will of Elohim, even your sanctification, for you are bought with a price and are not your own:

Mark 9:42-49 KJV
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

And as for the "little ones" of which he speaks, Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of the Father which is in the heavens: for the Son of man is come to save that which was lost, and the Absolute Master is the Avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. Three evil shepherds I cut off in one year: an evil wandering right eye always wandering off toward unsightly things like a desert nomad wandering goat; an evil right hand master of wicked works; an evil foot always running swiftly into mischief; and and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that which is dying, let die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of his neighbor. And the Word said to me, Take yet unto yourself the instruments of a foolish shepherd, for behold, I raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young, nor heal what is broken, nor feed what is sound: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened! And the lamp to light of the inside of the body of the man is the eye: if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light; but if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness; if therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is the darkness! So you see, it is not "all eyes" that will see the Holy One coming with the clouds of heaven, but rather, "every eye". Therefore one must get to doing the will of Elohim: Pluck, pluck! Chop, chop! :crackup:

And those "members" of your household which you have been forced to put to sleep will arise in the last day, otherwise why immerse for the dead if they rise not? We wash them in the washing of water into the Word. And when they rise you will not precede them; for the dead in Messiah rise first. Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from henceforth, yea, the Spirit says, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow with them. Therefore, I say, it is ridiculous to think that false doctrines have a consciousness, (ECT), they do not have awareness but simply enter into a man and kill whosoever eats them and spews them out for others to consume. They must therefore go into the fire at the end of your age. All things are done in parables.

:sheep:

Have you considered the possibility that Paul might actually mean exactly what it sounds like? That the dead shall rise together with the sound of a trumpet and voice of an archangel?

 

[daqq]

Have you considered the possibility that Paul might actually mean exactly what it sounds like? That the dead shall rise together with the sound of a trumpet and voice of an archangel?

Have you considered the possibility that I may have once believed that way for 27 years before being unexpectedly transformed? What and Who do you suppose changed my thinking? Every menorah is of one piece of hammered-beaten pure gold. Have you ever considered the likelihood of the words of Yeshua coming to pass in your lifetime saying that you would see others sitting down in the kingdom of Elohim with Abraham, Yitschak, and Yaakob, while you yourself are yet in outer darkness? (for even the sons of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, [for a time]). I strongly suggest to you that not just Abraham, Yitschak, and Yaakob, but Moshe, Petros, Paulos, and all the holy ones are here too; I eat clean food together with them at the Table of the Master on a continual basis. To those that are without all things are done in parables; for Elohim has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, Elohim has chosen, yea, even things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: that no flesh may glory in the Presence of Elohim. One will never find his way until he or she finally decides to fully surrender and become fully immersed into the full Testimony of Yeshua.

 

[Rosenritter]

Have you considered the possibility that I may have once believed that way for 27 years before being unexpectedly transformed? What and Who do you suppose changed my thinking? Every menorah is of one piece of hammered-beaten pure gold. Have you ever considered the likelihood of the words of Yeshua coming to pass in your lifetime saying that you would see others sitting down in the kingdom of Elohim with Abraham, Yitschak, and Yaakob, while you yourself are yet in outer darkness? (for even the sons of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, [for a time]). I strongly suggest to you that not just Abraham, Yitschak, and Yaakob, but Moshe, Petros, Paulos, and all the holy ones are here too; I eat clean food together with them at the Table of the Master on a continual basis. To those that are without all things are done in parables; for Elohim has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, Elohim has chosen, yea, even things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: that no flesh may glory in the Presence of Elohim. One will never find his way until he or she finally decides to fully surrender and become fully immersed into the full Testimony of Yeshua.

The difference between reality and delusion can be distinguished by whether anyone else can also perceive what you claim. I once heard someone claim that he WAS in heaven at that very moment. Do you believe him?

 

[way 2 go]

Actually, not just that verse. It is written throughout the Bible that the wicked will be destroyed.
2 Peter 3:7

2 Peter 3:7
physically from the natural world

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
that destruction is going to take awhile

Malachi 4
physically from the natural world

Matthew 3:12
burn with unquenchable fire."
I happen to agree with this, not from your view tho


Psalm 37:10
physically from the natural world

Psalm 37:20
physically from the natural world

Psalm 37:38
physically from the natural world

Psalm 92:7
physically from the natural world

Besides, your reading of Matthew 10:28 doesn't make any sense. Why would Jesus tell us to fear the one who can BUT WILL NOT destroy both the body and soul?
If there is no destruction, then there is no reason to fear destruction.

"but rather fear him which is able"

says whom to fear and why ... because he is ABLE.



Deu_6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day.

 

[Timotheos]

2 Peter 3:7
physically from the natural world

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
that destruction is going to take awhile

Malachi 4
physically from the natural world

Matthew 3:12
burn with unquenchable fire."
I happen to agree with this, not from your view tho


Psalm 37:10
physically from the natural world

Psalm 37:20
physically from the natural world

Psalm 37:38
physically from the natural world

Psalm 92:7
physically from the natural world



"but rather fear him which is able"

says whom to fear and why ... because he is ABLE.



Deu_6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day.

None of the Scriptures I led you to actually SAY "physically from the natural world." Not one. You added that merely because that is what you believe, not because that's what the Bible says.

 

[Rosenritter]

None of the Scriptures I led you to actually SAY "physically from the natural world." Not one. You added that merely because that is what you believe, not because that's what the Bible says.

Actually, the burden of proof would be for Mr. Go to prove that someone destroyed completely from the natural world somehow becomes immortal in a different world. And since scripture says that we are not immortal and that eternal life is a gift only for those that believe in him, I would say he has already lost that argument before he has started.

Mr. Go, your resistance past this point is becoming absurd. What is the real reason you are clinging to your Evil hath Immortality doctrine?

 

[daqq]

The difference between reality and delusion can be distinguished by whether anyone else can also perceive what you claim. I once heard someone claim that he WAS in heaven at that very moment. Do you believe him?

It is amazing that you cannot see what just happened. I spoke to you from the scripture and those words were spoken to the followers of Yeshua by the Master himself almost two thousand years ago; and yet you clearly do not believe those words ever happened to them, or anyone else up until now, simply because you cannot see such things with your own natural man eyes of the flesh.

Matthew 8:10-12 ASV
10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes are not "sons of the kingdom" but rather his disciples are, (to become), the sons of the kingdom. The Testimony of Yeshua says that those without did not enter themselves, and even worse, they took away the "keys", (which I am trying to show you), and likewise hindered others from entering in. In another place Yeshua says the same to those following him: it is they themselves who will be cast out into the outer darkness, (for an appointed time).

Luke 13:24-30 ASV
24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are;
26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets;
27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.

If I sit at the Table of the Master, and if I eat with the fathers of the faith; and if I consume their words, the words of Abraham, Yitschak, and Yaakob, and Moshe, and all the Prophets; and if I live and breathe their words: then they have an abode with me through their words which I have consumed and believed and walk in. And I am therefore not complete without them, and they are perfected through me, (see Hebrews 11:40). And if I also live in Messiah, then they live also through me, and therefore they do indeed live; and I know this because Elohim is not Elohim of the dead but of the living. And when I ask my Father for clean food He does not give me spiritual death to consume.

But you say these things have never happened so that you may retain your literal physical paradigm: however, the words of Messiah shall never pass away, so what happens when your "all at once resurrection" comes to pass and a supposed global physical world dominion empire of a thousand year rule comes to pass? According to your understanding the sons of the kingdom and disciples of Yeshua still have not yet been cast out into outer darkness so those words still must necessarily come to pass for them. You therefore do not care what the outcome of your doctrine is for them so long as you get to keep your flesh man paradigm. The kingdom of Elohim does not come with ocular-visual observation: neither shall they say, See here it is! or, Look, it is over there! for behold, the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20-21).

I once heard someone claim that he WAS in heaven at that very moment. Do you believe him?

Revelation 13:6
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against Elohim, to blaspheme His name, and His Tabernacle: those tabernacling in the heavens.

Those who are clothed from on High are tabernacling beneath the Wings of the Father, in the Son:
It is a tabernacle not made with hands, (2 Cor 5:1-4, 2 Cor 5:17, Rev 21:3-5).
Behold, if any be truly in Messiah, all things are become new.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

 

[Timotheos]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Yes. I agree with those scriptures, but none of them refute Romans 6:23 and John 3:16
The wages of sin is death and those who reject Jesus Christ will not receive eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever, they will perish just as John 3:16 says, because the wages of sin is death just as Romans 6:23 says.

"For the wages of sin is death, BUT the Gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord."

My sister has three children. One day, in a last ditch effort to get them to behave she said, "I will give each of you a gift if you are good all day today, I will buy you an ice cream cone." The two boys were very good that day, and they received their gift of ice cream. Her daughter was more naughty than ever. She didn't receive the gift of ice cream.

God offers all of us a gift, the gift of eternal life. John 3:16 says that whosoever believes in the Son of God will receive this gift and will not perish. Whoever does not receive the gift of eternal life will perish, just as the Bible says. As you know, the gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of sin is death. This is what the Bible says.

(PS, do you really believe that the "Wonderful Lord Jesus" will torture people alive in hell forever? Have you read about Him in the Bible?)

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

PS, do you really believe that the "Wonderful Lord Jesus" will torture people alive in hell forever?

This is an excellent point of order, that goes to faith. As for me, I have no catchy anecdotes to try and explain away scripture with, no twists to offer.

It doesn't matter one whit what I think, what I like or dislike, what I understand or don't understand, what I agree or disagree with. In this matter, I offered the word of God, and it only matters what God has to say, His truth, my opinions and prejudices completely irrelevant.

Also, I feel most woefully inadequate to assess the righteousness or justice of Eternal, Holy, Holy, Holy Almighty God, even fear such thinking, which I must, therefore, leave to others without that restraint. And truth is truth, anything to the contrary of no consequence, any more than novels are the word of God.

So, you really should ask somebody else for some doctrines of man. If you prefer novels, that is. You'll find a lot of agreement with a Jehovah's Witness, an Adventist, Jews that reject Christ and unbelievers, generally, enough others to weigh in around here, agree with you and tell you what you want to hear.

By the way, I first heard your viewpoint from a Satanist, as a very young man, not some "Christian" cult, this the primary reason they rejected the Lord. Perhaps not the best company?

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Isaiah 55

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Timotheos]

This is an excellent point of order, that goes to faith. As for me, I have no catchy anecdotes to try and explain away scripture with, no twists to offer.

I nearly didn't put the PS in my message for fear that you would only respond to that and not to the Scriptural Support. Sadly, I find that is exactly what you did.

Since we know for certain that the wages of sin is death, the wages of sin cannot be eternal conscious torment.

Since we know for certain that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ, we also know that those who reject Christ will not receive the gift of eternal life.

And I do not base MY beliefs on what OTHER people believe. It is not relevant if the JWs and SDA Church believe the same thing I believe. What matters is what the BIBLE says. You'll find a lot of agreement with a Mormon, a Muslim, and Adolph Hitler, all of whom believe in eternal conscious torment (ECT) in hell. Does that make ECT true or false?

I guess you have a lot of faith that Jesus will torture people alive forever in hell. How much faith you have in something does not affect the truth of the matter. Romans 10:2 shows that it is not good to have zeal without knowledge.

As you say, your thoughts are not God's thoughts, and His ways are higher than your ways. You should not assume that your ways are God's ways. What matters is what the BIBLE says.

By the way, I am not a JW, a SDA, or a Satanist. In fact, it was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who first told the lie that you believe, "Surely you will NOT die". According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. According to Satan, everyone has eternal life. According to God, eternal life is a gift given to those who put their faith in Him. I hope this helps you.

And think about this:
Isaiah 55

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Rosenritter]

It is amazing that you cannot see what just happened. I spoke to you from the scripture and those words were spoken to the followers of Yeshua by the Master himself almost two thousand years ago; and yet you clearly do not believe those words ever happened to them, or anyone else up until now, simply because you cannot see such things with your own natural man eyes of the flesh.

Daqq, honestly you are hard to follow. I try to ask one question of you with small words and you reply with a tsunami of text. Yes, there are scripture quotations in there, but you add tons of your own interpretation besides that has neither been proved nor is a necessary conclusion.

I will ask a couple questions. Would you please reply directly to these?

1. Was there a literal person named Adam who literally died?
2. Was Jesus literally born into this world, in the flesh?
3. Was Jesus literally killed, on a literal cross?
4. Was Jesus literally raised from the dead, with the rock from the tomb literally rolled away?
5. Was Jesus seen again by his disciples, not just seen, but touched, and handled? With literal eyes, and literal hands?
6. Will we all literally die?
7. Will we all literally be raised to life some time after we have literally died?

No walls of text please. Make the answers clear and unable to be mistaken. I need to base my next question off of those answers.

 

[daqq]

Daqq, honestly you are hard to follow. I try to ask one question of you with small words and you reply with a tsunami of text. Yes, there are scripture quotations in there, but you add tons of your own interpretation besides that has neither been proved nor is a necessary conclusion.

I will ask a couple questions. Would you please reply directly to these?

1. Was there a literal person named Adam who literally died?
2. Was Jesus literally born into this world, in the flesh?
3. Was Jesus literally killed, on a literal cross?
4. Was Jesus literally raised from the dead, with the rock from the tomb literally rolled away?
5. Was Jesus seen again by his disciples, not just seen, but touched, and handled? With literal eyes, and literal hands?
6. Will we all literally die?
7. Will we all literally be raised to life some time after we have literally died?

No walls of text please. Make the answers clear and unable to be mistaken. I need to base my next question off of those answers.

Turn about is fair play: who says my last response was really for you?
Perhaps there is someone behind you; but I do not intend to say who that is, (not a zombie).
Anyway, all this literal stuff you want to know is irrelevant if you think only the physical is literal.
Physical is temporary while Spirit cannot be moved.
But now we really are getting too far off topic.
Have a nice thread.

 

[Rosenritter]

Turn about is fair play: who says my last response was really for you?
Perhaps there is someone behind you; but I do not intend to say who that is, (not a zombie).
Anyway, all this literal stuff you want to know is irrelevant if you think only the physical is literal.
Physical is temporary while Spirit cannot be moved.
But now we really are getting too far off topic.
Have a nice thread.

Are the questions too difficult? Because this not off topic at all. The veracity of a literal resurrection of dead is integral to this thread.

1 Corinthians 15:12-23 KJV
(12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

(15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Paul speaks almost as if he has been listening to this conversation. How else could he say any more clearly that Christ was raised from the dead? If Christ was not raised, our faith is in vain. All the children of Adam die, but all that are raised shall be raised just as Christ was raised, literal life from literal death. To me it sounds like you have been saying that the dead rise not, and as such Paul has already addressed that error.

Is Paul speaking of literal death and bodily resurrection? Certainly so!

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
(3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That "according to the scriptures" means that the scriptures speak of literal death and literal resurrection, not with the allegorical whimsical dismissal that you seem to apply with a broad brush.

1 Corinthians 15:32 KJV
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

 

[daqq]

Are the questions too difficult? Because this not off topic at all. The veracity of a literal resurrection of dead is integral to this thread.

1 Corinthians 15:12-23 KJV
(12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

(15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Paul speaks almost as if he has been listening to this conversation. How else could he say any more clearly that Christ was raised from the dead? If Christ was not raised, our faith is in vain. All the children of Adam die, but all that are raised shall be raised just as Christ was raised, literal life from literal death. To me it sounds like you have been saying that the dead rise not, and as such Paul has already addressed that error.

Is Paul speaking of literal death and bodily resurrection? Certainly so!

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
(3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That "according to the scriptures" means that the scriptures speak of literal death and literal resurrection, not with the allegorical whimsical dismissal that you seem to apply with a broad brush.

1 Corinthians 15:32 KJV
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

The portion of your comments which I have highlighted in red are TRUE, Paul had indeed heard it firsthand; and yet here he is, back from the dead, writing about it for all to read. Think about that: how is it that he is telling you all of these things if he does not know them for facts? How does he speak with such authority if he has not undergone the transformation of which we speak? How is it that he tells you that he knows the terror of the Master? (have I not told you the same?). And by the same token how is it that Enoch was taken, and yet wrote down what he saw when he was taken, after the fact? And those who believe Jude know that he calls Enoch a prophet so please do not offer up the same old line that you do not accept the book of Enoch just because the so-called church fathers decided to anathematize the book. Howbeit the main point is not whether or not Enoch should be canon but the fact that the epistle of Jude calls Enoch a prophet, and quotes from the book of Enoch, and yet Enoch could not have been written by Enoch if Enoch was taken and never returned. Therefore Enoch was taken, as the scripture says, and Enoch was transformed, as the scripture says, but that does not mean he was taken up in the flesh never to be seen again like most of Christianity seems to believe. This is only example number one: Paul also was taken, that is, "caught up", and he too was transformed like Enoch, and he likewise expounds this event in 2 Cor 12:1-4. Why therefore do none of you so-called Christians believe him? for if indeed you believed him you would incorporate his teachings into your own doctrines. Those who believe in a so-called "rapture" always separate this vision of Paul out of the equation in their doctrine even though Paul uses the same word harpazo multiple times in the passage. And why do they do this? Because it refutes their own fantasy doctrine of being caught away in the flesh never to be seen again. As for the rest it has already been answered before you even brought it up: again, All flesh is not the same flesh...if there is a soma psuchikos natural physical body then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal spiritual body. You do not recognize your own soma-pneumatikos-spiritual-body and therefore you do not sow toward that body in your doctrine even though Paul admonishes you to do so. Both Enoch and Paul therefore underwent their own transformations, BEFORE the physical death of the physical body, just as I have also tried to explain in other ways. Your physical body will perish one day: then what will you have? If you do not change your thinking you will not end up very bright as a star.

 

[way 2 go]

None of the Scriptures I led you to actually SAY "physically from the natural world." Not one. You added that merely because that is what you believe, not because that's what the Bible says.

none of those verses explicitly state destroyed after judgement day .

 

[Rosenritter]

The portion of your comments which I have highlighted in red are TRUE, Paul had indeed heard it firsthand; and yet here he is, back from the dead, writing about it for all to read. Think about that: how is it that he is telling you all of these things if he does not know them for facts? How does he speak with such authority if he has not undergone the transformation of which we speak? How is it that he tells you that he knows the terror of the Master? (have I not told you the same?). And by the same token how is it that Enoch was taken, and yet wrote down what he saw when he was taken, after the fact? And those who believe Jude know that he calls Enoch a prophet so please do not offer up the same old line that you do not accept the book of Enoch just because the so-called church fathers decided to anathematize the book. Howbeit the main point is not whether or not Enoch should be canon but the fact that the epistle of Jude calls Enoch a prophet, and quotes from the book of Enoch, and yet Enoch could not have been written by Enoch if Enoch was taken and never returned. Therefore Enoch was taken, as the scripture says, and Enoch was transformed, as the scripture says, but that does not mean he was taken up in the flesh never to be seen again like most of Christianity seems to believe. This is only example number one: Paul also was taken, that is, "caught up", and he too was transformed like Enoch, and he likewise expounds this event in 2 Cor 12:1-4. Why therefore do none of you so-called Christians believe him? for if indeed you believed him you would incorporate his teachings into your own doctrines. Those who believe in a so-called "rapture" always separate this vision of Paul out of the equation in their doctrine even though Paul uses the same word harpazo multiple times in the passage. And why do they do this? Because it refutes their own fantasy doctrine of being caught away in the flesh never to be seen again. As for the rest it has already been answered before you even brought it up: again, All flesh is not the same flesh...if there is a soma psuchikos natural physical body then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal spiritual body. You do not recognize your own soma-pneumatikos-spiritual-body and therefore you do not sow toward that body in your doctrine even though Paul admonishes you to do so. Both Enoch and Paul therefore underwent their own transformations, BEFORE the physical death of the physical body, just as I have also tried to explain in other ways. Your physical body will perish one day: then what will you have? If you do not change your thinking you will not end up very bright as a star.

1. Would you please use some white space (blank lines) in your text? Pretty please? It would make it easier to read, also easier to follow your thought pattern if you wrote in blocks instead of gigantic-run-on-stream-of-consciousness-walls-of-text. This is not to poke fun at you, it is because I assume you want to be heard more effectively.

2. As soon as you said that Paul was "back from the dead" that derailed your credibility for everything you built on that assumption from that point on. Paul can say these things because he received direct revelation from God, God spoke to him on the road to Damascus, he had received visions. For you to dogmatically assume that he died... that starts to put everything else you say way out on the fringe.

3. Enoch no doubt was a prophet in his day, but just because there is a rather suspect "Book of Enoch" available today does not mean that Enoch wrote that book or that Jude was referring to it. I judge the book of Enoch is respect to known scripture, such as Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets. As I understand the comparison, the "book of Enoch" is a forgery that is contradicted by the rest of scripture. Regardless, even if a source is mentioned in scripture it would not mean it is 100% accurate. For example, the book of Jasher. Have you read the book of Jasher? I'll rest my point there.

4. Paul said he received a vision. It says that Enoch was taken away. Those aren't the same thing.

5. Please do not assign "caught away in the flesh never to be seen again" to be or anyone else on this thread unless they themselves say something to that effect first. What you are doing is using a "straw man argument" without checking to see if whomever you are whaling against even holds to said belief first. Again, this hurts the credibility of any following conclusions based on said whaling.

6. Would you please use English instead of psuedo-Greek? It's somewhat distracting.

7. Again, you don't have any evidence that says that Enoch or Paul underwent any transformations before they physically died. You started your post with that assumption, based it on one branch of a "what if" without waiting for an answer or alternative, and then ended on that again. That's a nice piece of circular logic, which means that it doesn't hold water, and just looks like a lot of rambling.

I asked a series of simple questions. If you want to continue this discussion, could you please answer those questions briefly and succinctly? I hope that is not too much to ask?

I will ask a couple questions. Would you please reply directly to these?

1. Was there a literal person named Adam who literally died?
2. Was Jesus literally born into this world, in the flesh?
3. Was Jesus literally killed, on a literal cross?
4. Was Jesus literally raised from the dead, with the rock from the tomb literally rolled away?
5. Was Jesus seen again by his disciples, not just seen, but touched, and handled? With literal eyes, and literal hands?
6. Will we all literally die?
7. Will we all literally be raised to life some time after we have literally died?

No walls of text please. Make the answers clear and unable to be mistaken. I need to base my next question off of those answers.

Seriously, though. If you will not answer those questions with simple "yes" or "no" then there isn't much of a conversation here. I have no idea if you believe any part of the Bible as being literal, or if you have any and every part subject to fanciful reinterpretation.

Sincerely,
-Rosenritter

 

[daqq]

1. Would you please use some white space (blank lines) in your text? Pretty please? It would make it easier to read, also easier to follow your thought pattern if you wrote in blocks instead of gigantic-run-on-stream-of-consciousness-walls-of-text. This is not to poke fun at you, it is because I assume you want to be heard more effectively.

2. As soon as you said that Paul was "back from the dead" that derailed your credibility for everything you built on that assumption from that point on. Paul can say these things because he received direct revelation from God, God spoke to him on the road to Damascus, he had received visions. For you to dogmatically assume that he died... that starts to put everything else you say way out on the fringe.

That was not a dogmatic assumption but at this point there is no point in trying to tell you why.

3. Enoch no doubt was a prophet in his day, but just because there is a rather suspect "Book of Enoch" available today does not mean that Enoch wrote that book or that Jude was referring to it. I judge the book of Enoch is respect to known scripture, such as Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets. As I understand the comparison, the "book of Enoch" is a forgery that is contradicted by the rest of scripture. Regardless, even if a source is mentioned in scripture it would not mean it is 100% accurate. For example, the book of Jasher. Have you read the book of Jasher? I'll rest my point there.

Guilt by association? Terrible tactic: I never mentioned Yasher the Upright. However, as for Enoch, large portions and fragments of the same have been found at Qumran and they are dated to anywhere from 200-100BCE. The only section not found, (in association with Ethiopian 1Enoch), was anything from the section called The Parables of Enoch. Otherwise sections from all of the remainder of the book, 1Enoch, (Ethiopian), are attested at Qumran and, at that, some 100 to 200 years before the advent of Messiah. Jude quotes from the same source and that source was found at Qumran. Sorry for your luck; you simply do not know what you are talking about. Additionally, with the scripture having informed us that Enoch died, you are simply denying what is right in front of your eyes.

4. Paul said he received a vision. It says that Enoch was taken away. Those aren't the same thing.

Enoch was caught up just as Paul was caught up.
Enoch shed his carcass and it died just as Paul shed his carcass and it died.
The flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you are Spirit and Life, (John 6:63).

5. Please do not assign "caught away in the flesh never to be seen again" to be or anyone else on this thread unless they themselves say something to that effect first. What you are doing is using a "straw man argument" without checking to see if whomever you are whaling against even holds to said belief first. Again, this hurts the credibility of any following conclusions based on said whaling.

Just because you deny that many futurist minded Christians believe in a "rapture" exactly as I described it does not make it untrue or a strawman argument. Spend more time among them, talk to them, lend them your ear, there are plenty around here who believe exactly the way I have described it to you.

6. Would you please use English instead of psuedo-Greek? It's somewhat distracting.

Please do some research in your own time. It is simple transliteration and commonly used. Have you never even looked up a definition for a Greek word? You can get whole Bibles in Transliteration, (Romanization). Your complaint is reminiscent of a child throwing a tantrum because he or she is not getting their way.

harpazo = ἁρπάζω

7. Again, you don't have any evidence that says that Enoch or Paul underwent any transformations before they physically died. You started your post with that assumption, based it on one branch of a "what if" without waiting for an answer or alternative, and then ended on that again. That's a nice piece of circular logic, which means that it doesn't hold water, and just looks like a lot of rambling.

4. Paul said he received a vision. It says that Enoch was taken away. Those aren't the same thing.

Do you not believe the scripture passage which clearly says that Enoch was translated and then died? Are there any scripture passages you actually do take seriously? If you do not believe the scripture then why would you believe me or anyone else? How can Enoch have been transformed or translated according to the author of Hebrews, and not have seen death, and yet DIED? And this was already pointed at near the beginning of our interaction, and you agreed with the scripture which was posted, and yet here we are a few days later and you appear to again make the same mistake that the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes all made even after it was brought to your attention, that is, "seeing death" and "tasting of death" are not the same things; and physical death for the most part is not even recognized in the New Testament writings because it is commanded to be so by the Master himself.

You must be willing to believe all that Yeshua says and not just what you pick and choose to believe. Yeshua says, I am the resurrection and the life: the one that is faithfully trusting into me, though dying, yet shall live: and [after dying off] whosoever lives and is faithfully trusting into me shall not die, [going] into the age. Believe you this or not? Because, if not, then perhaps you are dead. However, concerning your carcass, you cannot accomplish these things after your carcass is dead. You do therefore greatly err as one of your quotes states; for Elohim says through the Malak at the burning bush that He is Elohey Abraham, therefore, at that time already, Abraham is living. The physical death of the body is not even recognized in the New Testament writings, in fact, this mindset is a commandment if you desire to be a disciple of Yeshua. Pay better attention to what you read, and be careful how you hear what you hear, (Luke 8:18), for even the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes, often mishear what Yeshua says. The following is a perfect example, there is a critical difference even just between "seeing death" and "tasting death" as shown in the following passage:

John 8:51-53 ASV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.
52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself?

You see what I mean? He says, "If a man keep my word, he shall never see death", but they imagine in the machinations of their vain imaginations that he said "never taste of death" because they were carnal minded fleshmonger natural men. They even blaspheme and accuse him of having a demon after not properly hearing what he actually said, (just as seems to happen quite often around this forum). And herein is the commandment I mentioned above right here in this passage; and this is the commandment in the above passage in case you do not see or hear it: STOP SEEING DEATH in everything you read and hear because it is clouding your judgment and you are not keeping the word of the Master as he states in the above passage. If anyone keeps his word the same will not see death. And as for what I said being nonsensical it most likely sounds that way to you because you might indeed be dead and supernal things always sound nonsensical to dead men and fleshmongers, (there sure a lot of them around here; the zombie apocalypse is upon us!).

So when I said that Paul was "back from the dead", you apparently assumed automatically that I must have meant physical death, without asking for any clarification, (and so again you practice the very same things you accuse me of doing), and you therefore have not heard anything that has been said.

Hebrews 11:5-13 KJV
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.3
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch was "not found", because he was caught up just as was Paul and just as it is written in 1Enoch, and he was transformed and translated, and did not see death; and then he died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. The author of Hebrews lays it out exactly in the order which I have already explained to you: first the transformation-translation of Enoch the prototype, then, after he was translated into the kingdom of Elohim, came the shedding of his physical carcass, (physical death), which is meaningless after one has already been clothed in the Tabernacle of Elohim from on High. And how much more now shall these shadows and types come to pass among those along the Way of the narrow path heading into Messiah?

 

[Rosenritter]

That was not a dogmatic assumption but at this point there is no point in trying to to tell you why...

You should slow down for confirmation before launching more walls of text. Many of your word arguments are rendered irrelevant by bad assumptions.

But I seem to remember an ultimatum that you needed to answer those seven yes or no questions first. Sorry, need those answers for reference first.

 

[daqq]

You should slow down for confirmation before launching more walls of text. Many of your word arguments are rendered irrelevant by bad assumptions.

But I seem to remember an ultimatum that you needed to answer those seven yes or no questions first. Sorry, need those answers for reference first.

And I seem to remember you insinuating that I am delusional among your many other politely worded derogatory comments. I only feel led to speak of these things on certain occasions, and do not often do so; but when someone insinuates that I am delusional I tend to pile it on so that they will harden, (and their appointed times will come quicker though I obviously have no control over that). The point being here that you did not choose me, I chose you, and only because I know there is someone else here that probably understands the things I have spoken about. I already told you from the scripture: to those that are without all things are done in parables. But apparently you do not believe those words of the Master either.