Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[way 2 go]

You're right Jesus didn't say "I am God"

thank you

which proves that God tortures people alive forever. No, I'm not following your bizarre logic here. John 3:16 proves tormentism wrong, whether or not Jesus said the words "I am God."

one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

 

[freelight]

blasting 'hell'.....................

blasting 'hell'.....................

one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Whether ECT is declared explicitly in the original languages (which bears to be seen), since its only translations into English words that have confused this issue and promoted ECT,....ECT can be rejected for moral and ethical reasons alone, so it wouldn't matter if a religious book taught it,...which would bring into question the integrity or truth of the writing as written by men, and not inspired by God or some curious con-fusion thereof.

Remember our lessons on the word 'aionios' here,....such indicates an 'age', an indefinite period of time, a dispensation, etc. So much depends on a correct translation of the word 'aionios' and its derivitives within 'context'. A dispensation of punishment and/or blessing both pertain to an 'age', they have a beginning and end if the word 'aion' is being used.

Time to leave the dark ages and free yourself from Dante's inferno.

What you are left with is holding to a belief or concept of ECT that is wholly unnecessary since divine justice and mercy are carried out ultimately in the universe by God's own love and wisdom, as each soul chooses for itself either life or death, whereby the heavenly tribunals render the most perfect judgments in the case of every individual soul. Thus John 3:16 holds, as the ultimatum of life or death is given to all, thereby reaching their full fruition in eternal life or immortality, or a period of punishment and then termination of DEATH, from which there is no resurrection. Hence, both life and death are meted out as it were, by universal law of choice, action and consequence. What a man sows, that also shall he reap.

Having souls, whether angel or human be condemned to an eternity of suffering and torment TO NO END,....get that...TO NO END,....is insanity. How could love or divine wisdom allow for, condone or uphold such suffering and torment to no end,.....for all eternity...and still be LOVE!? its just insane. Theres no other way to put it, from which an intelligent person would search a better solution and interpretation of eschatology.

Hence, 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism' have much better rationale based on various points and propositions in the 'scriptures' and at least agrees with certain terms and standards within man's own conscience which reflects the divine principles and ethics of cosmic law.

 

[Rosenritter]

Whether ECT is declared explicitly in the original languages (which bears to be seen), since its only translations into English words that have confused this issue and promoted ECT,....ECT can be rejected for moral and ethical reasons alone, so it wouldn't matter if a religious book taught it,...which would bring into question the integrity or truth of the writing as written by men, and not inspired by God or some curious con-fusion thereof.

The Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine originated before the English language, when Greek and Latin were in widespread use. The first recorded written proponents include Athenagoras (AD 177) and later Tertullian (approx 200 AD), and Universalism seems to have arisen as a reaction afterwards through Origen of Alexandria (same century, post-Tertullian). The source of Eternal Conscious Torment is not the English language but rather the attempt to merge Greek philosophy ("eternal souls") with Christian doctrine.

...

 

[Rosenritter]

I rather like William Tyndale, enjoy the context.

More---“Item, that all souls lie and sleep till doomsday.”

Tyndale:---And ye, in putting them in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the argument wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection. What God doth with them, that shall we know when we come to them. The true faith putteth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to stablish it. Moses saith in Deut. “The secret things pertain unto the Lord, and the things that be opened pertain unto us, that we do all that is written in the book.” Wherefore, sir, if we love the laws of God, and would occupy ourselves to fulfil them, and would on the other side be meek, and let God alone with his secrets, and suffer him to be wiser than we, we should make none article of the faith of this or that. And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?

One of my favorite excerpts from "An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue"

 

[way 2 go]

Please answer the question. If our souls be in heaven when we die, and thus Abraham Isaac and Jacob do live, how does Christ's statement that "He is the God of the living, not of the dead" prove the resurrection?

... By the way, William Tyndale grilled Sir Thomas More with that same question over 400 years ago. I don't think More answered the question either.

physically, you know dead bodies resurrected

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

asked and answered

Abraham's spirit is now in heaven his earthly body is in the ground

(BTW Abraham's side is not heaven )

Abraham Lazarus and the rich man their bodies are all buried
their spirits are all here.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Abraham Lazarus are now in heaven awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

 

[Rosenritter]

asked and answered

Abraham's spirit is now in heaven his earthly body is in the ground

(BTW Abraham's side is not heaven )

Abraham Lazarus and the rich man their bodies are all buried
their spirits are all here.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Abraham Lazarus are now in heaven awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

Way2Go, you keep dodging the question. If Abraham's spirit is in heaven, then how did Christ's answer prove the resurrection of the dead?



"And when he proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, ‘If God be their God, they be in heaven, for is not the God of the dead;’ there he stealeth away Christ’s argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven, which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite and maketh Christ’s argument of none effect. For when Christ allegeth the scripture, that God is Abraham’s God, and addeth to, that God is not God of the dead but of the living, and so proveth that Abraham must rise again, I deny Christ’s argument, and I say with M. More, that Abraham is yet alive, not because of the resurrection, but because his soul is in heaven.

And in like manner, Paul’s argument unto the Corinthians is nought worth: for when he saith, ‘If there be no resurrection, we be of all wretches the miserablest; here we have no pleasure, but sorrow, care, and oppression; and therefore, if we rise not again, all our suffering is in vain: ‘ ‘Nay, Paul, thou art un-learned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.’ And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection?"

William Tyndale, bible translator and Christian martyr, from "An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue"

 

[way 2 go]

Way2Go, you keep dodging the question. If Abraham's spirit is in heaven, then how did Christ's answer prove the resurrection of the dead?

this is becoming like the synonyms of shall and will :blabla:

"And when he proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, ‘If God be their God, they be in heaven, for is not the God of the dead;’

Abraham was not in heaven at the time of Luk 20:34

Abraham Lazarus are today in heaven awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

the dead are spirits . no bodies . nothing physical .

there he stealeth away Christ’s argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection:

Abraham has not been resurrected, does not have a body, he is just spirit.
like these spirits.
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven, which doctrine was not yet in the world.

Abraham was not in heaven at the time of Luk 20:34
sin had not been payed for yet.

And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite and maketh Christ’s argument of none effect.

still need the resurrection of the body

For when Christ allegeth the scripture, that God is Abraham’s God, and addeth to, that God is not God of the dead but of the living, and so proveth that Abraham must rise again,

Abraham must rise again bodily

this what happens when you do not understand spirit and body can be separated
and the spirit can exist apart from the body.

Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
all alive in spirit in heaven , bodies in the ground
we will all get resurrected bodies

I deny Christ’s argument, and I say with M. More, that Abraham is yet alive, not because of the resurrection, but because his soul is in heaven.

God said he is the God of the living
are you saying he is the God of the dead.

you are either alive to God or dead to God spiritually

Paul was born spiritually alive.
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

[/B]And in like manner, Paul’s argument unto the Corinthians is nought worth: for when he saith, ‘If there be no resurrection, we be of all wretches the miserablest; here we have no pleasure, but sorrow, care, and oppression; and therefore, if we rise not again, all our suffering is in vain: ‘ ‘Nay, Paul, thou art un-learned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.’ And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection?"

William Tyndale, bible translator and Christian martyr, from "An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue"

the sum of that is if we still exist then the no need for the resurrection

we need a physical body :duh:

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?


1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

1Co_15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

that would be the physical body

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.




about the Thessalonians reference
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Joh 11:11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."


the body falls asleep , dies
Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.


the spirit lives on
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Rosenritter]

this is becoming like the synonyms of shall and will :blabla:

Abraham was not in heaven at the time of Luk 20:34

Abraham Lazarus are today in heaven awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

the dead are spirits . no bodies . nothing physical .



Abraham has not been resurrected, does not have a body, he is just spirit.

You seem to have no idea what you are saying or what you are arguing against. Do you not understand that Christ's entire proof of the resurrection of the dead depends on the assumption that the dead, which includes Abraham, cannot be considered alive in any sense? Your theories of "sin not paid at that time" aren't even relevant. If Abraham existed as a spirit in heaven or any place at all, then "He is the God of the living" does NOT PROVE THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Christ's argument trumps yours. It's really that simple.

By the way, I don't know where you're getting this idea that sin could not be forgiven until after Christ was crucified. There's dozens of examples available but I will use this one for now:

Matthew 9:2 KJV
(2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Would you please try to refrain from introducing philosophy which is so easily contradicted by scripture?

Matthew 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
(6) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

 

[daqq]

I have an idea. Instead of placing words and arguments for me, use questions. Questioning is a time-honored method as demonstrated in the gospels. But here's the short form of answer for you - your interpretation seems to forget the resurrection. For example,

John 8:51-52 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

You correctly noted that it was the detractors that changed his words for him to "never taste of death" which is incorrect. Abraham has tasted of death. I think you might be making a different mistake of assuming that Abraham is not dead - and as we have seen already, Jesus does acknowledge Abraham is dead, and his proof of the resurrection relied on that assumption.

So what does he mean when he says that a man shall never see death?

Revelation 20:6 KJV
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

and again,

John 11:24-26 KJV
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus does not contradict Martha as being mistaken but rather adds to her words. The resurrection of the dead is a very real literal event, and common sense should demand that one must first die before he can be raised again.



1 Corinthians 15:35-36 KJV
(35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
(36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Paul goes on to explain that this quickening to life is in the same fashion as demonstrated by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45 KJV
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

When shall this occur? If one believes the whole bible (as you challenged) it has not happened yet, but it will be ushered in all at once for everyone with the sound of a trumpet. That automatically excludes Abraham being "resurrected" before he died some thousands of years ago.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



If you think I am mistaken, or have forgotten something important, please illustrate this in the form of a question, where my answer would reveal the flaw in my thinking. It's a very effective tactic when used correctly, but it also has an element of fairness.

Paul clearly warns us to walk according to the Spirit because if we walk according to the flesh we will die. How then will you understand any of his words if you read them with a carnal mindset? You're quoting things you do not understand to make your case. Where is it ever written, as you say in your remarks, that the resurrection is an "all at once" event where everyone will be resurrected at the same time? That is your own interpretation and mindset which has been inserted into everything you read on the subject. Go back and restudy and leave the preconceived notions off the table when you do. Yeshua never says he will reveal himself to the whole world all at once and, in fact, says that he will not because, as he also says, the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20-21), and at the same time tells you that the kingdom of Elohim does not come with ocular-visual observation: neither shall they say, "Look, here it is!" or "See, it is over there!"

John 14:21-23 KJV
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You really do not even appear to understand what true Life is according to the scripture because if you did you would hear what I have been trying to say by way of the Testimony of Yeshua. Learn the parables and sayings of Yeshua because, as already stated a few pages back, (which you seem to have already forgotten), to those that are without all things are done in parables. The whole world lies in wickedness and the zombie apocalypse is upon us: if you walk by the flesh they will eat you but on the other hand you cannot stab spirit with a kitchen knife. The parables apply to all things including the topic of this thread as I stated and showed in those remarks a few posts back in this thread. Yeshua is not going to manifest himself to the whole world all at once; neither will there be an "all at once" resurrection because it is to each in his or her own appointed times. Your time does not depend on waiting for anyone else to get his or her act together and die to the flesh. Your time is not the same time as someone else, their time is not your time, his time is not her time, her time is not his time, your time is not their time, and my time was not what your time will be, and so on and so on. And most do not understand the reason for the appointed times to begin with: one of those most critical appointed times is likened to Bar Mitzvah, is the time when a child becomes a son of the kingdom, a son of Elohim, a son therefore of the resurrection, being sons of Elohim, for He is not the God of the dead but the living. But a joint-heir, as long as he or she is a babe or a child in the mother's milk of the Word, (Yerushalaim of above is our mother, covenant), the same differs nothing from a slave, though he or she be destined to be master of all when the House Master himself returns as if from a far away journey, but is under tutors, (Prophets) and governors, (Torah and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father, (which no man knows, not even the angels of heaven; but the Father only knows the day). The same day is that in which the Father and the Son come and make their abode with you, (if indeed you overcome in your appointed time; and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

When shall this occur? If one believes the whole bible (as you challenged) it has not happened yet, but it will be ushered in all at once for everyone with the sound of a trumpet. That automatically excludes Abraham being "resurrected" before he died some thousands of years ago.

In this you speak only for yourself; and when your seventh trumpet blows time will be no more.
And the holy ones will welcome you into Olam Haba . . .

 

[Rosenritter]

Paul clearly warns us to walk according to the Spirit because if we walk according to the flesh we will die. How then will you understand any of his words if you read them with a carnal mindset? You're quoting things you do not understand to make your case. Where is it ever written, as you say in your remarks, that the resurrection is an "all at once" event where everyone will be resurrected at the same time? That is your own interpretation and mindset which has been inserted into everything you read on the subject. Go back and restudy and leave the preconceived notions off the table when you do. Yeshua never says he will reveal himself to the whole world all at once and, in fact, says that he will not because, as he also says, the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20-21), and at the same time tells you that the kingdom of Elohim does not come with ocular-visual observation: neither shall they say, "Look, here it is!" or "See, it is over there!"

John 14:21-23 KJV
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You really do not even appear to understand what true Life is according to the scripture because if you did you would hear what I have been trying to say by way of the Testimony of Yeshua. Learn the parables and sayings of Yeshua because, as already stated a few pages back, (which you seem to have already forgotten), to those that are without all things are done in parables. The whole world lies in wickedness and the zombie apocalypse is upon us: if you walk by the flesh they will eat you but on the other hand you cannot stab spirit with a kitchen knife. The parables apply to all things including the topic of this thread as I stated and showed in those remarks a few posts back in this thread. Yeshua is not going to manifest himself to the whole world all at once; neither will there be an "all at once" resurrection because it is to each in his or her own appointed times. Your time does not depend on waiting for anyone else to get his or her act together and die to the flesh. Your time is not the same time as someone else, their time is not your time, his time is not her time, her time is not his time, your time is not their time, and my time was not what your time will be, and so on and so on. And most do not understand the reason for the appointed times to begin with: one of those most critical appointed times is likened to Bar Mitzvah, is the time when a child becomes a son of the kingdom, a son of Elohim, a son therefore of the resurrection, being sons of Elohim, for He is not the God of the dead but the living. But a joint-heir, as long as he or she is a babe or a child in the mother's milk of the Word, (Yerushalaim of above is our mother, covenant), the same differs nothing from a slave, though he or she be destined to be master of all when the House Master himself returns as if from a far away journey, but is under tutors, (Prophets) and governors, (Torah and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father, (which no man knows, not even the angels of heaven; but the Father only knows the day). The same day is that in which the Father and the Son come and make their abode with you, (if indeed you overcome in your appointed time; and none shall be alone in his appointed times).



In this you speak only for yourself; and when your seventh trumpet blows time will be no more.
And the holy ones will welcome you into Olam Haba . . .

Where is the secret code book you are using to get the Zombie Apocalypse scenario explanation you just read into 1 Corinthians 15? I mean seriously, what standard are you using?

 

[daqq]

Where is the secret code book you are using to get the Zombie Apocalypse scenario explanation you just read into 1 Corinthians 15? I mean seriously, what standard are you using?

John 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Do the following emphatic factual statements show deceptive or misleading teaching in your opinion?

Matthew 13:10-17 ASV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.

Matthew 13:34-35 ASV
34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

Mark 4:10-13 ASV
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
13 And he saith unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how shall ye know all the parables?

Mark 4:33-34 ASV
33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it;
34 and without a parable spake he not unto them: but privately to his own disciples he expounded all things.

To those that are without all things are done in parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings. Yeshua spoke nothing to the multitudes and crowds of people except in parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings. This includes the statements concerning hell as well as the story of Lazarus which was spoken to the Pharisees out in the open. I personally am not willing to label this technique as "deceptive" or "misleading" and yet this information, (imo), bears weight on the statement of John 8:58 because if you believe the above information then the statements to the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Priests, are not so cut and dry as most seem to take for granted. In addition to the above Yeshua clearly says in John 5:31 that if he testifies of himself his testimony is not true, and therefore, he does not claim to be God anywhere in the Gospel accounts because if he did his own testimony of himself, claiming to be God, would by default nullify his own claim.

All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a soma psuchikos natural body, it is raised a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body. If there is a soma psuchikos natural body, then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body.

Which body does Paul advise you to sow toward?
Which body is the one you do not want to see cast into Gehenna?

The Master is expounding from the Prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:18-24 KJV Restored Name
66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto YHWH out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my set-apart mountain Jerusalem, saith YHWH, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of YHWH.
66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith YHWH.
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith YHWH, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith YHWH.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa66.htm

If you simply look at it in the Septuagint in comparison to the Greek in Mark you will see that although Mark 9:44 & 46 are disputed 9:48 is still definitely a quote from Isaiah 66:24. Likewise in the Isaiah passage from the Greek Septuagint one might take special note that the "carcasses of men" in Isaiah 66:24 are not "full bodies of carcasses", but rather body parts, like hands, feet, an evil eye that offends you, and so on and so on. In addition the word which is rendered "spectacle" in the Brenton Translation is also used for visions, (horasis-horasin, i.e. Acts 2:17) It is not only prophetic language but allegorical and parabolic in nature, (as usual with the prophets).

I quote Mark 9:48 in place of Mark 9:44 & 46 simply because it is not disputed:

Mark 9:48 KJV
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48 W/H 1881
48 ὅπου ὁ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτᾷ καὶ τὸ πῦρ οὐ σβέννυται·

Esaias 66:24 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
24 And they shall go forth, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=66

Esaias 66:24 LXX-Septuagint
24 καὶ ἐξελεύσονται καὶ ὄψονται τὰ κῶλα τῶν ἀνθρώπων τῶν παραβεβηκότων ἐν ἐμοί· ὁ γὰρ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτήσει, καὶ τὸ πῦρ αὐτῶν οὐ σβεσθήσεται, καὶ ἔσονται εἰς ὅρασιν πάσῃ σαρκί.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=66

"κῶλα" (kola) in the above is GSN#2966 "kolon" which is any limb of the body:

Original Strong's Ref. #2966
Romanized kolon
Pronounced ko'-lon
from the base of GSN2849; a limb of the body (as if lopped):
KJV--carcase.

And not only a limb but a limb that is as if lopped or chopped off! :crackup:

Therefore what the Master teaches is in accordance with this passage and in fact the will of the Father, which is to cut off evil from ourselves and mortify the deeds of the body as Paul also says, (Romans 8:13 KJV) and again, mortify your own "members" which are upon your own "earth", (Colossians 3:5) because every man has his "the Land" which he is set in charge over while the House Master is likened as to be away in a far journey, (Mark 13:34-37) and we are no more our own, and the eyes of our heavenly Father are upon His Land night and day from the beginning of the year unto the end of the year.

Therefore, in this allegorical light, one may properly understand the reasoning behind the statement concerning salt at the end of the passage in Mark:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Your presenting of your own body as a living sacrifice, which is your reasonable service, (Romans 12:1) means that since the teachings in Mark 9:43-50 and its companion passages are not literal body part cutting, hacking, and chopping, (lol) therefore also your "members" of your "household" will not literally die, and therefore their worm shall not die, (for Yakob also is called a worm, Isaiah 41:14) and the "fire" thereof shall likewise not be quenched; for every one shall be salted with fire, (an immersion) and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt, (preservative). And when the Master of the House comes he will bring with him those former "unruly members" of your household which you have been forced "to put to sleep", (otherwise why immerse for the dead, as Paul says, if those "members" of your household do not rise? verily they shall awaken before you and you will not precede them) and those members will finally serve the Master properly under your rule or shepherding, in your dominion-kingdom, when the Master returns and rewards you for your deeds and good works, (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18). It is all allegory and parable and has nothing to do with teaching eternal conscious torment of human beings. Perhaps when you go up to Yerushalaim of Above, and then return from your trip, perhaps then you will "see" the carcasses of those members of your household which have transgressed against the Father, (and what a terrible vision it will be). :crackup:

:sheep:

 

[daqq]

You can read about the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15:1-17.
You can read about the whole world lying in wickedness in 1 John 5:18-19.
You can read about the walking dead in Matthew 8:22, Matthew 23:27, and Ephesians 2:1-2.

:sheep:

 

[Timotheos]

thank you



one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

It is explicitly stated in the Bible that the wicked will be destroyed, so if you want to contradict that you need solid proof of ECT which you have not given.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

My question way back went uncontested.

If Jesus is the Authority of scripture as He claims:

John 5:39

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

---------------------------------------------------------------

Then does the character of Jesus reveal a God that believes in eternal Torture?

Is Jesus a God of Torture or Mercy, for one is distinctly different than the other.

If God is Love as 1 Cor. 13 says, does a loving Father ALLOW eternal punishment.

And making God schizophrenic is unacceptable. The Father and Son are one by Jesus's profession.

This point remains uncontested.




Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Rosenritter]

You're quoting things you do not understand to make your case. Where is it ever written, as you say in your remarks, that the resurrection is an "all at once" event where everyone will be resurrected at the same time? That is your own interpretation and mindset which has been inserted into everything you read on the subject. Go back and restudy and leave the preconceived notions off the table when you do. Yeshua never says he will reveal himself to the whole world all at once ...

Daqq, are we reading the same scripture with sixty-six canonical books? I grant that there is both a first and second resurrection, but these are definitely "all at once" events, not a trickle-in-a-time ongoing mystical secret event. First, let's establish that there is a resurrection and that all will be raised from Paul's speech in Acts (see also Daniel 12:2 KJV).


Acts 24:14-15 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Now let's establish that the resurrection of the just (Luke 20:35) is an "all at once" event. 1 Corinthians 15 has a wealth of description on this subject. Paul clearly says that first, a trumpet shall sound, then the dead shall be raised and then living shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. That doesn't leave much room for the "trickle-in" theory of resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Paul also says in Hebrews that the saints of old are not perfected without us. To translate that into English, that means that we are all made perfect together, at the same time.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Of the second resurrection, it may be that the event takes place over a prolonged period of time, but it is certainly one event, and a mass event.

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"Where is it written" you ask? In the prophets, the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the epistles, and Revelation. Again, I acknowledge two divisions of the resurrection, but I used the generalization of "all at once" in response to your estimation that "resurrection" was some sort of secret mystical state of being that could occur before one died.


Oh... does Jesus say he will reveal himself to the whole world at once? Yes, he does say exactly that.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
(7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As for the rest of your prior words, Daqq, it is hard to follow what you mean to say, or even what specifically you are disagreeing with. However, if you insist that the resurrection is just a "state of mind" then I don't think I can trust the rest of your interpretation that follows on that foundation.

 

[Rosenritter]

My question way back went uncontested.

If Jesus is the Authority of scripture as He claims:

John 5:39

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

---------------------------------------------------------------

Then does the character of Jesus reveal a God that believes in eternal Torture?

Is Jesus a God of Torture or Mercy, for one is distinctly different than the other.

If God is Love as 1 Cor. 13 says, does a loving Father ALLOW eternal punishment.

And making God schizophrenic is unacceptable. The Father and Son are one by Jesus's profession.

This point remains uncontested.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

Dear Nameless,

1) the character of Jesus does not reveal a God that is consistent with "eternal torture" as a means of redemption or punishment
2) the concepts of "torture" and "mercy" do stand apart from one another
3) however, a loving father does allow eternal punishment.

It seems that you are equating "punishment" with "torture" in this question. The eternal punishment spoken of in the bible is an eternal death, from which the dead shall not rise nor be resurrected. Way 2 Go will howl and whale that death is not a punishment, but Paul does say that death is punishment indeed (see Hebrews 10:29).

I will not contest that Jesus and his Father are One. It is correct to apply the character attributes of Jesus to God in heaven above and the judge of the quick and the dead.

 

[daqq]

Daqq, are we reading the same scripture with sixty-six canonical books? I grant that there is both a first and second resurrection, but these are definitely "all at once" events, not a trickle-in-a-time ongoing mystical secret event. First, let's establish that there is a resurrection and that all will be raised from Paul's speech in Acts (see also Daniel 12:2 KJV).


Acts 24:14-15 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Now let's establish that the resurrection of the just (Luke 20:35) is an "all at once" event. 1 Corinthians 15 is wealth on this subject. Paul clearly says that first, a trumpet shall sound, then the dead shall be raised and then living shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. That doesn't leave much room for the "trickle-in" theory of resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Paul also says in Hebrews that the saints of old are not perfected without us. To translate that into English, that means that we are all made perfect together, at the same time.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Of the second resurrect, it may be that the event takes place over a prolonged period of time, but it is certainly one event, and a mass event.

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"Where is it written" you ask? In the prophets, the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the epistles, and Revelation. Again, I acknowledge two divisions of the resurrection, but I used the generalization of "all at once" in response to your estimation that "resurrection" was some sort of secret mystical state of being that could occur before one died.


Oh... does Jesus say he will reveal himself to the whole world at once? Yes, he does say exactly that.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
(7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Perhaps you simply have not taken the time to look into the difficulties which your position creates. If what you suggest is true then Paul and others, including Yeshua himself, and even the author of the Revelation, are pretty much all proven to have been wrong across the board when it comes to eschatology. Go argue with some full Preterists for a while and you will quickly see what I mean. Mat 16:28, Mat 23:36, Mat 24:30-34, Mat 26:64, Luke 21:32, Rom 13:11-12, 1 Thes 4:15-17, 1 Thes 5:1-4, 2 Thes 2:1-12, Heb 10:37, 1 Pet 4:7, James 5:8, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:10 and on and on and on. According to your understanding they were all wrong because what you perceive them to have been saying never happened in their own lifetimes. Yet clearly the apostolic writers have an imminency and urgency about the soon coming of the great day of the Master in their very own lifetimes. At the same time you have disconnected the New Covenant writings from the Torah and therefore probably do not even realize how badly your paradigm violates the rules for both prophets and The Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15-22.

And regardless of whether or not you understand I have a commandment concerning your version of Messiah:

"When a prophet speaks in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the YHWH has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not fear him." (Deut 18:22).

So how long is too long to wait? Do I have another two thousand years to wait and see if the words of your prophet come to pass? I say to you that two thousand years already up to now is a mockery. The words which Yeshua spoke and likewise those which his apostles wrote down actually did come to pass, and those same things continue to come to pass, and that is because the appointed times of the Father are to each in his or her own appointed times. It is only seen as a whole because it concerns the All Yisrael and Olive Tree of YHWH as one people, (the manchild nation born in a day, Isaiah 66 and Rev 12, and if one is in Messiah that day is Golgotha).

 

[way 2 go]

It is explicitly stated in the Bible that the wicked will be destroyed, so if you want to contradict that you need solid proof of ECT which you have not given.

you mean this verse?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

can't be that verse it explicitly states to fear who is able.


what verse explicitly states the wicked will be destroyed
after judgement day ?

 

[way 2 go]

My question way back went uncontested.

If Jesus is the Authority of scripture as He claims:

John 5:39

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,


Then does the character of Jesus reveal a God that believes in eternal Torture?

well previously in john chapter 5

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is Jesus a God of Torture or Mercy, for one is distinctly different than the other.

Jesus is the just judge

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

If God is Love as 1 Cor. 13 says, does a loving Father ALLOW eternal punishment.

Jesus is the judge and he is not a father to the wicked.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

And making God schizophrenic is unacceptable. The Father and Son are one by Jesus's profession.

Jesus is judge , king and sacrificial lamb of God

Jesus will save those that except him
and those who do not except him condemn themselves.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

This point remains uncontested.

done

ps:

Jesus also said this

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Rosenritter]

You can read about the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15:1-17.
You can read about the whole world lying in wickedness in 1 John 5:18-19.
You can read about the walking dead in Matthew 8:22, Matthew 23:27, and Ephesians 2:1-2.

:sheep:

You realize that while the first reference you gave can be classified as metaphor, the latter two are obvious simile?

Matthew 23:27 KJV
(27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The "for ye are like" means "likened to" as in "compared to" and the specific language prevents confusion that might arise from metaphor. It does not mean that the Pharisees were literally whited sepulchers.

Ephesians 2:1-2 KJV
(1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again, Ephesians uses simile, as "dead" is qualified by "dead in trespasses and sins." These are not zombies.

[h=1]Simile[/h]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


For other uses, see Simile (disambiguation).
A simile (/ˈsɪməli/) is a figure of speech that directly compares two things.^[1][2] Although similes and metaphors are similar, similes explicitly use connecting words (such as like, as, so, than,or various verbs such as resemble),^[1] though these specific words are not always necessary.^[3] While similes are mainly used in forms of poetry that compare the inanimate and the living, there are also terms in which similes and personifications are used for humorous purposes and comparison.