Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

way 2 go

Well-known member
I was going to stop, as I said, but it was necessary to clarify, (for obvious reasons), the statement which I highlighted in red from the previous poster.


one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Jesus is God
and the human spirit exist apart from the dead body
Luk 23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."
 

daqq

Well-known member
one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Jesus is God
and the human spirit exist apart from the dead body
Luk 23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."

All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a soma psuchikos natural body, it is raised a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body. If there is a soma psuchikos natural body, then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body.

Which body does Paul advise you to sow toward?
Which body is the one you do not want to see cast into Gehenna? :)
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
This response does not really address the fact that God is LOVE. Love is what God IS,...speaking of nature. You begin there, knowing what God is in essence, then you know that his actions spring that his constitution.

God is love but he hates evil

Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Deu_4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Psa 7:11 God judges the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.


Love does not inflict eternal pain or torment, neither could love will or enforce an eternal state of punishment and suffering upon any sentient being, let alone its own offspring. Love does no harm. Love saves,

Gen 6:7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them.


...every man,
Gen 7:22 all who breathed the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

heals, restores, liberates, redeems, makes available all means of atonement, rehabilitation, reformation, renewal, rebirth, regeneration, salvation.
Jesus died to pay for our sins which you say he can't
you say every person has to pay for there own sins.

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


Only if there is by some universal law of free will, the possibility that some souls could choose against love and make a final choice of self-destruction, could love no longer avail itself in the rescue of such an individual, per the laws of providence and free agency. This is a deeper subject than a surface browse will do....but there you have the laws of providence and destiny.

Is God's love infinite?

What is Love's will?

Does such a quest-ion interest you?

are you going to start a new thread ?
:WA:
 

Rosenritter

New member
Comprehension Quiz!

Comprehension Quiz!

one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Jesus is God
and the human spirit exist apart from the dead body
Luk 23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Way 2 Go, you have made it quite clear that you are willing to disregard absolute literal bible statements so as to make room for your own philosophy. But you've also proven that you are unwilling to answer direct questions, so I will leave this quiz open to anyone to take. Have fun all!

Luke 23:43 KJV
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Question 1: Attempt to diagram the King James passage above: which verb portion of the statement does "today" modify?
a) "Shalt"
b) "be with me"
c) "Trinity"

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Question 2: When Jesus spoke to Mary above, how many days had passed since that day he spoke on the cross?
a) It was still the same day, no days had passed
b) At least one (e.g. three days and three nights)
c) 144,000 days

Acts 2:31-33 KJV
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


Question 3: According to Peter in the Acts passage above, where was the soul of Christ before he was raised?
a) heaven ("paradise")
b) purgatory
c) Abraham's bosom
d) the hand of David
e) hell

Question 4: According to Way 2 Go, where was Jesus before he was raised?
a) heaven ("paradise")
b) purgatory
c) Abraham's bosom
d) the hand of David
e) hell

Good luck!
 

Timotheos

New member
one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Jesus is God
and the human spirit exist apart from the dead body
Luk 23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Those of us who believe the Bible when it says "the wages of sin is death" can also figure out that because the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that means Jesus is God. You are the only one having trouble in this area.

Make a new thread if you need to discuss this. It has nothing to do with whether God will torture people in Hell. Quit trying to derail the discussion.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a soma psuchikos natural body, it is raised a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body. If there is a soma psuchikos natural body, then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal-spiritual body.

Which body does Paul advise you to sow toward?

Paul says spirit here

Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Which body is the one you do not want to see cast into Gehenna? :)

not about want.

:think:
well the physical body would be burned up
but it goes in the ground when you die.

the spirit is not killed by physical death
or being in the flames.




what is in the flames here ?

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.




what is standing here ?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Paul says spirit here

Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.



not about want.

:think:
well the physical body would be burned up
but it goes in the ground when you die.

the spirit is not killed by physical death
or being in the flames.




what is in the flames here ?

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.




what is standing here ?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Way 2 go, didn't you notice that the Rich Man in that parable is not in Gehenna?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Sundry items....

Sundry items....

There is reason to believe that though. The evidence is shown in how the Jews reacted to the statement. Stoning is the assigned punishment for blasphemy. Additionally, the context provided was when Jesus responded to the question of how he could know Abraham if he was not more than 50 years old. Your proposed meaning doesn't fit the context very well.

There was a host of reasons that the Jews concerned wanted to kill Jesus, and they could have taken up stones earlier in their discourse,...that was my point. He challenged their boast of being Abrahams children, and that he as the Messiah was in the mind and plan of God before Abraham was even born, and he looked to his coming. Jesus himself only claimed to be the Son of God, God's Messenger, his anointed one. John 8:58 does not prove Jesus was identifying as the 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' of Ex. 3:14, as we've challenged that claim elsewhere since it has a host of problems.

Why are you assuming that Jesus was speaking in Greek? The gospel was written in Greek, but Jesus was speaking to Jews. It would be very bizarre for him to switch into Greek for this purpose, rather far more likely that he was speaking in Hebrew. In Hebrew that phrase had meaning, as defined in the books of Moses. And as you said, in Greek the phrase wouldn't have any significance on its own, so why say something meaningless?

I never assumed Jesus spoke in greek, but if you want to tackle translation issues, even the Septuagint uses a different word to denote YHWH, as 'The Being' (ho on), there is just not a simple 'ego eimi', a term that any person could apply to himself in an appropriate context. Also note the 'divine name' is beyond pronounciation, a mystery unto itself beyond 4 consonants (the tetragrammaton) and some metaphysical meanigns of 'self-existence'. Jesus was saying that he was the one whom Abraham looked to, God's anointed,....Jesus existed in the mind/plan of God from before Abraham was born. There is no justification for putting 'ego eimi' as capital 'I AM' in John 8:58 in some translations as some translators have done who are Trinitarians btw.

If context is key, then context indicates a Hebrew reference, in Hebrew speech, in response to the question being asked and the challenge to his authority. The reaction he got would not have been such to a milder statement suggested by Anthony Buzzard.

I'd recommend another look at the context :)

Btw, I see a Unitarian view of Jesus/God as just feasible/logical as a Trinitarian one, with some minor quibbles and 'interpretation' issues woven thru-out. The assumption of Jesus being the Son of God and Son of Man is well enough by its formal definitions, and it is his claim of being the Son of God, and we being children of the Most High as well that was his main message, along with his gospel of the kingdom pointing more towards a spiritual brotherhood of man, under the universal Fatherhood of God.

But the gospels also agree that Jesus was the Father of Spirits.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You mean John's gospel only, which is unique unto itself by authorship and 'Christology' ;)

John 1:1 is a debate unto itself, from a Unitarian perspective. Do note that the Universal Father (the Original and Most High God, the First Source and Center of all things and beings) maintains absolute primacy as the Father of all, including Jesus. All means 'all'. All else are but offspring of The One Universal Father. - now from here depending on our Christology things can get a bit complex, but if seen thru a 'heirarchy' or 'divine order',...its appropriations are fitting. Henceforth, my own 'Christology' (ha) if you can call it that is rather quite liberal, eclectic and flexible :) - adding some inflections of cosmic hierarchy from the Urantia Book also adds some colour and spice to the mix.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Souls in transit.....

Souls in transit.....

The bible is fairly clear that we are beings with free moral agency. We do have free will. If you were inclined to address the subject from "scripture only" I should be able to demonstrate this. However, I know that you aren't limiting yourself to scripture, and as such I assume that a proof from scripture wouldn't be convincing to you. However, here's the catch... isn't "God is love" sourced from that scripture also?

So I'll offer something else instead. You said "only if there is some universal law of free will ... could love no longer avail itself in the rescue of such an individual, per the laws of providence and free agency."

Without free will there is no individual, there is simply a hive mind: one individual and many parts, each of which could be discarded without affecting the whole. If you admit that we are individuals, you by necessity admit free will. If you remove free will, you destroy the very essence of what makes the individual.

I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning, by the way. I acknowledge that your logic of "All shall be saved if we do not have free will" does have merit, I just dispute the base assumption.

I concur that free will exists among individual souls, hence the prospect of 'life' of 'death' is determined within the free will sovereignty of individual choice. Hence our observation that 'conditional immortality' and a rejection of ECT is more textually 'biblically' supported than ECT (although this in my view does not conclude an absolute truth to the matter, since I think there is more to story of souls and their ultimate destiny and the transformation process of such a journey as described from the vast literature and knowledge archives of human experience amassed thus far in our evolution).

Of the 3 options of ECT, conditional immortality and universalism,...the latter 2 are by far more rational although having their own perks.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Some food for thought.............

Some food for thought.............

one of the litmus tests the deniers have
for eternal conscious punishment
is it has to be explicitly stated to be true
which is why I brought up the subject
of Jesus never said "I am God"

Jesus is God

Well,....a gem hidden in mud is just as invisible as one hidden in sand ;)

ECT is pure insanity, no matter how you translate particular verses and can be dismissed on moral, rational and philosophical grounds alone.

Also the statement "Jesus is God" is a statement only, subject to interpretation. By so many of Jesus own statements, he is not 'God Almighty', and has a 'God' and 'Father' GREATER Than he. - note that even in an orthodox Trinitarian model of the Godhead,...Jesus still maintains subordinance to the Father, ALWAYS. They are NOT the same person in both Trinitarian and Unitarian contexts :)


and the human spirit exist apart from the dead body

Perhaps in some form if we consider a soulical and/or spiritual body where a living conscious personality is actually still functioning, but details here will differ per our own research, religious belief-system and brand of metaphysics ;)

Luk 23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Readers here may recall there is some controversy here in the particular verse WHERE to put the comma :) - I actually favor putting the comma after 'today',....so that Jesus is saying "Verily, I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". So, this agrees with the NWT translation, imagine that. Now there are various grammatical and theological reasons anyone might arrange the comma, if you research this more, and this page here is a good intro in defense of the comma after today. - this article defends the NWT translation, also to show that it is not due only to the 'preconceived theology' of the NWT translators. Another list noting earlier translations is here.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Way 2 Go, in that digging back through those posts I couldn't help but be reminded of a question that you've avoided answering. I'll kindly remind you of it again.

Luke 20:34-40 KJV
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
(39) Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
(40) And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees he said that "He is not a God of the dead, but of the living" proved the resurrection of the dead, that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob should rise. Yet when you referenced this account you disagreed and said that it instead proved that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob lived on in heaven or some other such place.

So if we were to suppose that you were correct, then how can Christ's statement possibly be construed to prove the resurrection of the dead? For if they were alive in any fashion already, "He is the God of the living" would deny any necessity of resurrection, thus he would have disproved himself publicly. Yet the scribes acknowledged that Jesus had spoken well, and he put them to silence thus.

Way 2 Go, if souls (or spirits) of men be in heaven when they die, how did Christ's statement prove the resurrection?


physically, you know dead bodies resurrected

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Those of us who believe the Bible when it says "the wages of sin is death" can also figure out that because the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that means Jesus is God. You are the only one having trouble in this area.

"the wages of sin is death"

the question is when ?

Paul explains that sin kills you when you sin

Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom_7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.




Jesus is God

I noticed you did not quote the verse where Jesus said "I am God"
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Way 2 Go, you seem to have mastered the art of chutzpah. If your example is any measure, it seems that the method of ECT proponents is to swear up is down, black is white, and left is right until they are blue in the face. Yes, you have been given the precise relevant passages in question.

In a post replying to you that you also replied to, Jesus names himself as God, using the oldest and most ancient name known to the Jews. Original post 5301 here.

John 8:57-59 KJV
(57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(59) Then took they up stones to cast at him:
but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


also in a post replying to you that you also replied to, this time the Old Testament context when God introduces himself to Moses and says this is how they shall know him. Original post 5324 here.

Exodus 3:13-15 KJV
(13) And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
(14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

If you cannot be trusted to recognize something so simple that should not even be controversial for you, and you continue to argue against it when proven wrong multiple times over, why should anyone trust you in anything else?

I noticed you did not quote the verse where Jesus said "I am God"
 

Timotheos

New member
"the wages of sin is death"

the question is when ?

Paul explains that sin kills you when you sin

Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom_7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.




Jesus is God

I noticed you did not quote the verse where Jesus said "I am God"

You're right Jesus didn't say "I am God" which proves that God tortures people alive forever. No, I'm not following your bizarre logic here. John 3:16 proves tormentism wrong, whether or not Jesus said the words "I am God."
 

Rosenritter

New member
Well,....a gem hidden in mud is just as invisible as one hidden in sand ;)

ECT is pure insanity, no matter how you translate particular verses and can be dismissed on moral, rational and philosophical grounds alone.

Also the statement "Jesus is God" is a statement only, subject to interpretation. By so many of Jesus own statements, he is not 'God Almighty', and has a 'God' and 'Father' GREATER Than he. - note that even in an orthodox Trinitarian model of the Godhead,...Jesus still maintains subordinance to the Father, ALWAYS. They are NOT the same person in both Trinitarian and Unitarian contexts :)




Perhaps in some form if we consider a soulical and/or spiritual body where a living conscious personality is actually still functioning, but details here will differ per our own research, religious belief-system and brand of metaphysics ;)



Readers here may recall there is some controversy here in the particular verse WHERE to put the comma :) - I actually favor putting the comma after 'today',....so that Jesus is saying "Verily, I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". So, this agrees with the NWT translation, imagine that. Now there are various grammatical and theological reasons anyone might arrange the comma, if you research this more, and this page here is a good intro in defense of the comma after today. - this article defends the NWT translation, also to show that it is not due only to the 'preconceived theology' of the NWT translators. Another list noting earlier translations is here.
I am familiar with that argument, but it is flawed. It argues from a perceived necessity because of what it thinks to be a contradiction in the result.

The problem is that their proposed grammatical rearrangement flies in the face of every example of Christ's speech. He commonly used the phrase "verily I say unto you" ... Which would then be followed by the statement. A "verily I say unto you today" phrasing would not only be redundant but also without precedent (from his speech pattern.)

There are good sound reasons why the comma phrasing mark is placed before the today, and not after. It correctly separates the two phrases.
 

Rosenritter

New member
physically, you know dead bodies resurrected

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
Please answer the question. If our souls be in heaven when we die, and thus Abraham Isaac and Jacob do live, how does Christ's statement that "He is the God of the living, not of the dead" prove the resurrection?

... By the way, William Tyndale grilled Sir Thomas More with that same question over 400 years ago. I don't think More answered the question either.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Please answer the question. If our souls be in heaven when we die, and thus Abraham Isaac and Jacob do live, how does Christ's statement that "He is the God of the living, not of the dead" prove the resurrection?

... By the way, William Tyndale grilled Sir Thomas More with that same question over 400 years ago. I don't think More answered the question either.

One must therefore be resurrected before he sheds his carcass of flesh at the end of this existence. Offer up a sweet smelling savor unto Elohim; the treble of a heifer, the treble of a she-goat, the treble of a ram, and a turtledove - a young pigeon. If you know what these represent according the entirety of scripture then take them of yourself, part them asunder in the midst, (but divide not the tsippor), and wait upon the Father. And when the fowls of the heavens come down upon the pieces, do not disallow them, but give your carcasses to the fowls of the heavens, (as shown in the Septuagint). No man can break this covenant when once the Father affirms it, (each in his or her own appointed times). There will be voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake, such as not since men have been upon the Land, (each in his own appointed times), so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And your great city will be divided into third parts, and the cities of the heathen will fall, and so shall you ever be with the Absolute Master. Then, indeed, the flesh will be of absolutely no profit in your dominion. Therefore Abraham does live: the fact that his carcass died off is meaningless to the man born from above. :)
 

Rosenritter

New member
One must therefore be resurrected before he sheds his carcass of flesh at the end of this existence. Offer up a sweet smelling savor unto Elohim; the treble of a heifer, the treble of a she-goat, the treble of a ram, and a turtledove - a young pigeon. If you know what these represent according the entirety of scripture then take them of yourself, part them asunder in the midst, (but divide not the tsippor), and wait upon the Father. And when the fowls of the heavens come down upon the pieces, do not disallow them, but give your carcasses to the fowls of the heavens, (as shown in the Septuagint). No man can break this covenant when once the Father affirms it, (each in his or her own appointed times). There will be voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake, such as not since men have been upon the Land, (each in his own appointed times), so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And your great city will be divided into third parts, and the cities of the heathen will fall, and so shall you ever be with the Absolute Master. Then, indeed, the flesh will be of absolutely no profit in your dominion. Therefore Abraham does live: the fact that his carcass died off is meaningless to the man born from above. :)

The idea that we are resurrected before we die is nonsensical and clearly not the meaning addressed when Christ spoke with these Sadducees. Here is the original question:

Luke 20:27-33 KJV
(27) Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
(28) Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
(29) There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
(30) And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
(31) And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
(32) Last of all the woman died also.
(33) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.


Your entire statement (where is that from exactly?) even if taken as correct, does not prove the resurrection of the dead. If that assumption were in place, it would prove that there is no need of resurrection. But how did Jesus answer?

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(27) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:37-38 KJV
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


Christ's proof is dependent on and only makes sense if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not alive now, but shall live only through the promised resurrection. It actually disproves the notion that we are "alive" in any sense whilst dead.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
The idea that we are resurrected before we die is nonsensical and clearly not the meaning addressed when Christ spoke with these Sadducees. Here is the original question:

Luke 20:27-33 KJV
(27) Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
(28) Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
(29) There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
(30) And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
(31) And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
(32) Last of all the woman died also.
(33) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.


Your entire statement (where is that from exactly?) even if taken as correct, does not prove the resurrection of the dead. If that assumption were in place, it would prove that there is no need of resurrection. But how did Jesus answer?

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(27) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:37-38 KJV
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


Christ's proof is dependent on and only makes sense if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not alive now, but shall live only through the promised resurrection. It actually disproves the notion that we are "alive" in any sense whilst dead.

You must be willing to believe all that Yeshua says and not just what you pick and choose to believe. Yeshua says, I am the resurrection and the life: the one that is faithfully trusting into me, though dying, yet shall live: and [after dying off] whosoever lives and is faithfully trusting into me shall not die, [going] into the age. Believe you this or not? Because, if not, then perhaps you are dead. However, concerning your carcass, you cannot accomplish these things after your carcass is dead. You do therefore greatly err as one of your quotes states; for Elohim says through the Malak at the burning bush that He is Elohey Abraham, therefore, at that time already, Abraham is living. The physical death of the body is not even recognized in the New Testament writings, in fact, this mindset is a commandment if you desire to be a disciple of Yeshua. Pay better attention to what you read, and be careful how you hear what you hear, (Luke 8:18), for even the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes, often mishear what Yeshua says. The following is a perfect example, there is a critical difference even just between "seeing death" and "tasting death" as shown in the following passage:

John 8:51-53 ASV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.
52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself?


You see what I mean? He says, "If a man keep my word, he shall never see death", but they imagine in the machinations of their vain imaginations that he said "never taste of death" because they were carnal minded fleshmonger natural men. They even blaspheme and accuse him of having a demon after not properly hearing what he actually said, (just as seems to happen quite often around this forum). And herein is the commandment I mentioned above right here in this passage; and this is the commandment in the above passage in case you do not see or hear it: STOP SEEING DEATH in everything you read and hear because it is clouding your judgment and you are not keeping the word of the Master as he states in the above passage. If anyone keeps his word the same will not see death. And as for what I said being nonsensical it most likely sounds that way to you because you might indeed be dead and supernal things always sound nonsensical to dead men and fleshmongers, (there sure a lot of them around here; the zombie apocalypse is upon us!). :)
 

Rosenritter

New member
You must be willing to believe all that Yeshua says and not just what you pick and choose to believe. Yeshua says, I am the resurrection and the life: the one that is faithfully trusting into me, though dying, yet shall live: and [after dying off] whosoever lives and is faithfully trusting into me shall not die, [going] into the age. Believe you this or not? Because, if not, then perhaps you are dead. However, concerning your carcass, you cannot accomplish these things after your carcass is dead. You do therefore greatly err as one of your quotes states; for Elohim says through the Malak at the burning bush that He is Elohey Abraham, therefore, at that time already, Abraham is living. The physical death of the body is not even recognized in the New Testament writings, in fact, this mindset is a commandment if you desire to be a disciple of Yeshua. Pay better attention to what you read, and be careful how you hear what you hear, (Luke 8:18), for even the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes, often mishear what Yeshua says. The following is a perfect example, there is a critical difference even just between "seeing death" and "tasting death" as shown in the following passage:

John 8:51-53 ASV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.
52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself?


You see what I mean? He says, "If a man keep my word, he shall never see death", but they imagine in the machinations of their vain imaginations that he said "never taste of death" because they were carnal minded fleshmonger natural men. They even blaspheme and accuse him of having a demon after not properly hearing what he actually said, (just as seems to happen quite often around this forum). And herein is the commandment I mentioned above right here in this passage; and this is the commandment in the above passage in case you do not see or hear it: STOP SEEING DEATH in everything you read and hear because it is clouding your judgment and you are not keeping the word of the Master as he states in the above passage. If anyone keeps his word the same will not see death. And as for what I said being nonsensical it most likely sounds that way to you because you might indeed be dead and supernal things always sound nonsensical to dead men and fleshmongers, (there sure a lot of them around here; the zombie apocalypse is upon us!). :)

I have an idea. Instead of placing words and arguments for me, use questions. Questioning is a time-honored method as demonstrated in the gospels. But here's the short form of answer for you - your interpretation seems to forget the resurrection. For example,

John 8:51-52 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

You correctly noted that it was the detractors that changed his words for him to "never taste of death" which is incorrect. Abraham has tasted of death. I think you might be making a different mistake of assuming that Abraham is not dead - and as we have seen already, Jesus does acknowledge Abraham is dead, and his proof of the resurrection relied on that assumption.

So what does he mean when he says that a man shall never see death?

Revelation 20:6 KJV
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

and again,

John 11:24-26 KJV
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus does not contradict Martha as being mistaken but rather adds to her words. The resurrection of the dead is a very real literal event, and common sense should demand that one must first die before he can be raised again.



1 Corinthians 15:35-36 KJV
(35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
(36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Paul goes on to explain that this quickening to life is in the same fashion as demonstrated by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45 KJV
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

When shall this occur? If one believes the whole bible (as you challenged) it has not happened yet, but it will be ushered in all at once for everyone with the sound of a trumpet. That automatically excludes Abraham being "resurrected" before he died some thousands of years ago.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



If you think I am mistaken, or have forgotten something important, please illustrate this in the form of a question, where my answer would reveal the flaw in my thinking. It's a very effective tactic when used correctly, but it also has an element of fairness.
 
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