Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Perhaps you simply have not taken the time to look into the difficulties which your position creates. If what you suggest is true then Paul and others, including Yeshua himself, and even the author of the Revelation, are pretty much all proven to have been wrong across the board when it comes to eschatology. Go argue with some full Preterists for a while and you will quickly see what I mean. Mat 16:28, Mat 23:36, Mat 24:30-34, Mat 26:64, Luke 21:32, Rom 13:11-12, 1 Thes 4:15-17, 1 Thes 5:1-4, 2 Thes 2:1-12, Heb 10:37, 1 Pet 4:7, James 5:8, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:10 and on and on and on. According to your understanding they were all wrong because what you perceive them to have been saying never happened in their own lifetimes. Yet clearly the apostolic writers have an imminency and urgency about the soon coming of the great day of the Master in their very own lifetimes. At the same time you have disconnected the New Covenant writings from the Torah and therefore probably do not even realize how badly your paradigm violates the rules for both prophets and The Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15-22.

And regardless of whether or not you understand I have a commandment concerning your version of Messiah:

"When a prophet speaks in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the YHWH has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not fear him." (Deut 18:22).

So how long is too long to wait? Do I have another two thousand years to wait and see if the words of your prophet come to pass? I say to you that two thousand years already up to now is a mockery. The words which Yeshua spoke and likewise those which his apostles wrote down actually did come to pass, and those same things continue to come to pass, and that is because the appointed times of the Father are to each in his or her own appointed times. It is only seen as a whole because it concerns the All Yisrael and Olive Tree of YHWH as one people, (the manchild nation born in a day, Isaiah 66 and Rev 12, and if one is in Messiah that day is Golgotha).

Please humor me and supply two (or perhaps three) clearly-spelled out examples of what you think these "errors in eschatology" might be. If you could also refrain from jumping to conclusions or answering for me until after I have a chance to see what your question is and respond that would also be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[Rosenritter]

well previously in john chapter 5

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All of that and you never did address his question about eternal torture.



Jesus is the just judge

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.



Jesus is the judge and he is not a father to the wicked.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Jesus is judge , king and sacrificial lamb of God

Jesus will save those that except him
and those who do not except him condemn themselves.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.





done

ps:

Jesus also said this

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You never did answer his question about Eternal Torture.

 

[daqq]

You realize that while the first reference you gave can be classified as metaphor, the latter two are obvious simile?

Matthew 23:27 KJV
(27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The "for ye are like" means "likened to" as in "compared to" and the specific language prevents confusion that might arise from metaphor. It does not mean that the Pharisees were literally whited sepulchers.

Ephesians 2:1-2 KJV
(1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again, Ephesians uses simile, as "dead" is qualified by "dead in trespasses and sins." These are not zombies.

Simile

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


For other uses, see Simile (disambiguation).
A simile (/ˈsɪməli/) is a figure of speech that directly compares two things.^[1][2] Although similes and metaphors are similar, similes explicitly use connecting words (such as like, as, so, than,or various verbs such as resemble),^[1] though these specific words are not always necessary.^[3] While similes are mainly used in forms of poetry that compare the inanimate and the living, there are also terms in which similes and personifications are used for humorous purposes and comparison.

Therefore I have quoted to you several times now, "TO THOSE WITHOUT, ALL THINGS ARE DONE IN PARABLES." Why do you still not hear what I say? Do you really believe that when I said "you might be dead" I meant it literally physically? If you were physically dead how could you be here writing back and forth with me and everyone else? And do you really believe that when I said zombies I meant literal walking dead zombie dead carcasses of people literally killing and literally eating the literal physical flesh of literal physical people? Why do you seek to separate me from what the scripture says? I have shown you what I meant by the scripture and yet you seem to think that what I told I meant was not what I meant. Now you are just wasting our time and filling up writing space.

 

[Timotheos]

you mean this verse?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

can't be that verse it explicitly states to fear who is able.


what verse explicitly states the wicked will be destroyed
after judgement day ?

Actually, not just that verse. It is written throughout the Bible that the wicked will be destroyed.
2 Peter 3:7
2 These 1:9
Malachi 4
Matthew 3:12
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 37:20
Psalm 37:38
Psalm 92:7

Plus many more.

Besides, your reading of Matthew 10:28 doesn't make any sense. Why would Jesus tell us to fear the one who can BUT WILL NOT destroy both the body and soul? If there is no destruction, then there is no reason to fear destruction.

 

[daqq]

Please humor me and supply two (or perhaps three) clearly-spelled out examples of what you think these "errors in eschatology" might be. If you could also refrain from jumping to conclusions or answering for me until after I have a chance to see what your question is and respond that would also be great. Thanks in advance.

Why do I need to spell them out for you when some of the more prominent statements were already quoted to you right there in the post of mine that you have now just quoted. How can you not see them and check them for yourself?

Matthew 24:25-34 KJV
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:23-30 KJV
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Do you expect me to believe that THE PROPHET who was foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-22 forewarned his inner circle of twelve apostles, and told them all things that were going to happen to them before they happened, but then those things he warned them about never happened to them? What I am saying to you is that THEY DID HAPPEN but you cannot see it because you see all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural man. And this is how I know that what I say is true; when he speaks to them in the Mark passage, he speaks with Peter, James, John, and Andrew, privately, but in both passages he says that the heavens and the earth will pass away but his words shall not pass away. Then at the end of the Mark passage he says this:

Mark 13:37 KJV
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The Master Teacher says:
1) "Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away", (Matt 24:35, Mark 13:31).
2) "And what I say to you I say unto ALL, WATCH!" (Mark 13:37).

The interpretation is locked in by the full context: you cannot say that any of this is a "one time event, for all of humanity, all at once", (as you do concerning Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27), because if it is then after that event has come to pass the words of Messiah will have passed away. In addition YOU, and I, and everyone else who desires to be a disciple of Yeshua, are also commanded to watch for all of the same supernal signs just as all of the disciples of Yeshua. Therefore, I say from Tanach contexts not yet mentioned, when your own Assyrian fig branch becomes tender, and begins to put forth his foliage; know that the summer of your harvest is near, even at the doors of your house, (O porter of the door, Mark 13:34). Lift up your head, (and stretch out that neck), for your redemption buyback purchase from the earth is at hand; the Most High, the Master of armies, He shall lop off the bough with terror: and the high ones of great stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled: and He shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and the white heart mountain, Levanon, shall fall by a mighty one. (Behold, to those that are without, all things are done in metaphors, similes, idioms, allegories, parables, and sayings). :crackup:

:sheep:

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

well previously in john chapter 5

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




Jesus is the just judge

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.



Jesus is the judge and he is not a father to the wicked.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Jesus is judge , king and sacrificial lamb of God

Jesus will save those that except him
and those who do not except him condemn themselves.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.





done

ps:

Jesus also said this

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Did Sodom suffer eternal punishment?


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Dear Nameless,

1) the character of Jesus does not reveal a God that is consistent with "eternal torture" as a means of redemption or punishment
2) the concepts of "torture" and "mercy" do stand apart from one another
3) however, a loving father does allow eternal punishment.

It seems that you are equating "punishment" with "torture" in this question. The eternal punishment spoken of in the bible is an eternal death, from which the dead shall not rise nor be resurrected. Way 2 Go will howl and whale that death is not a punishment, but Paul does say that death is punishment indeed (see Hebrews 10:29).

I will not contest that Jesus and his Father are One. It is correct to apply the character attributes of Jesus to God in heaven above and the judge of the quick and the dead.

[emoji1]. Indeed it is.

I agree and thank you for your well written and honest words.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Timotheos]

Did Sodom suffer eternal punishment?

Yes, The eternal punishment is eternal destruction. Sodom is said to be an example of the coming punishment. Just as Sodom was completely destroyed, so too will the wicked be completely destroyed.
If the people of Sodom were kept alive and in torment forever, we would know that the punishment is eternal conscious torment. Since Sodom was destroyed, we know the punishment for sin is death, just as the Bible says.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Yes, The eternal punishment is eternal destruction. Sodom is said to be an example of the coming punishment. Just as Sodom was completely destroyed, so too will the wicked be completely destroyed.
If the people of Sodom were kept alive and in torment forever, we would know that the punishment is eternal conscious torment. Since Sodom was destroyed, we know the punishment for sin is death, just as the Bible says.

That kind of makes the book of Jude the old coffin nail in the Jesus likes the idea of eternally roasting people, doesn't it?

Doesn't the idea that Satan rules in an eternal hell kind of refute the height, nor depth, nor any principality verse? In that light, doesn't the idea of eternal, conscious torture kind of frustrate the Grace and seek to undermine the message of the good news?

I cringe when Hell believing Christians talk to Athiests.

HBC: The Father is Love and took your punishment of Sin through the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

A: Wow, but if I forsake His gesture, He allows Eternal torture?

HBC: Um...... Yes. God is Love, Repent or Burn Forever

A: I'll take my chances without an abusive Father. Thanks.

HBC: But God took that punishment, so you can choose.

A: Not if there's still Eternal conscious punishment. Say, Christian, what Loving Father that professed Love even to enemies would Eternally allow excruciating agony?

HBC: Um..... Well....... You just don't get it.

A: Actually, you don't get it. Buyer Beware! Hitler probably burned all those people out of Awesome, Unconditional Love too, right?

HBC: My pastor said so and I have a handful of selected verses taken out of the context of allegory to prove it.

A: But if Perfect Love casts out all fear, why are you trying to use fear to turn me to Unconditionally Loving Jesus?

HBC: The Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom!

Jesus.......

Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Rosenritter]

Therefore I have quoted to you several times now, "TO THOSE WITHOUT, ALL THINGS ARE DONE IN PARABLES." Why do you still not hear what I say? Do you really believe that when I said "you might be dead" I meant it literally physically? If you were physically dead how could you be here writing back and forth with me and everyone else? And do you really believe that when I said zombies I meant literal walking dead zombie dead carcasses of people literally killing and literally eating the literal physical flesh of literal physical people? Why do you seek to separate me from what the scripture says? I have shown you what I meant by the scripture and yet you seem to think that what I told I meant was not what I meant. Now you are just wasting our time and filling up writing space.

That isn't wasted writing space Daqq. Way 2 Go has demonstrated that he doesn't understand the meaning of "metaphor" and "simile" as he continues to base his arguments on such. Whereas you just admitted that "dead" in those passages are used as a figure of speech, he maintains that are not, but rather form secret meanings which cloak Eternal Conscious Torment. You may have seemed to be in my sights, but I was aiming at someone behind you.

 

[daqq]

That isn't wasted writing space Daqq. Way 2 Go has demonstrated that he doesn't understand the meaning of "metaphor" and "simile" as he continues to base his arguments on such. Whereas you just admitted that "dead" in those passages are used as a figure of speech, he maintains that are not, but rather form secret meanings which cloak Eternal Conscious Torment. You may have seemed to be in my sights, but I was aiming at someone behind you.

Hahaha, touche, so you blew a hole through me to get to someone behind me . . .
But that's okay, I suppose, though I doubt any shrapnel will Go 2 Way 2 Go . . . :crackup:

 

[Rosenritter]

Why do I need to spell them out for you when some of the more prominent statements were already quoted to you right there in the post of mine that you have now just quoted. How can you not see them and check them for yourself?

Matthew 24:25-34 KJV
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Thank you for your illustration Daqq. But with so much description for those events, it seems like Jesus really did mean that. Trumpets, tribes of the earth mourning, the sun being darkened, the visible return of Christ in sky, none of those things have happened yet. I think that it is more likely that you are misunderstanding that last sentence than that all of those signs were just something "figurative" or that happened secretly without anyone noticing.

I think you are reading it as if it said, "This generation (the people living right now) shall not pass till all these things shall be fulfilled.". But that isn't the only possible understanding, and others might make better sense.

For example, "This generation (the people of Israel) shall not pass til all these things shall be fulfilled" would mean that Israel would not first perish as a people, that the people (generation) of the Jews would see this happen. That seems to be the commonly accepted understanding of this verse.

Another possible reading would be "This generation (those alive when those signs of tribulation start) shall not pass (die) until all these things be fulfilled." In other words, although the signs and wonders would be great and terrible, they will strike and climax quickly, but the people shall not be wiped out.

Which reading of that verse makes sense of the whole passage? I am rather disinclined to believe that Christ came and we somehow missed it, especially with words like "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and "every eye shall see him" (see Revelation 1:7 KJV ). Every eye has not seen him, either literally or figuratively, the sun has not ceased to give its light, and the tribes of the earth have not mourned when he appeared from the east to the west.

As an additional sanity check, attempting to apply a metaphorical meaning to detailed prophecies might as well make the whole thing of none effect. One can "philosophize away" practically anything in such a manner. When Jesus gave other prophesies, such as "not one stone shall be left standing upon another" they were fulfilled to the letter. Thus I don't see a precedent for "Preterist" interpretation.

 

[Rosenritter]

Hahaha, touche, so you blew a hole through me to get to someone behind me . . .
But that's okay, I suppose, though I doubt any shrapnel will Go 2 Way 2 Go . . . :crackup:

When dealing with zombie invasions you break out the big guns.

 

[daqq]

Thank you for your illustration Daqq. But with so much description for those events, it seems like Jesus really did mean that. Trumpets, tribes of the earth mourning, the sun being darkened, the visible return of Christ in sky, none of those things have happened yet. I think that it is more likely that you are misunderstanding that last sentence than that all of those signs were just something "figurative" or that happened secretly without anyone noticing.

I think you are reading it as if it said, "This generation (the people living right now) shall not pass till all these things shall be fulfilled.". But that isn't the only possible understanding, and others might make better sense.

For example, "This generation (the people of Israel) shall not pass til all these things shall be fulfilled" would mean that Israel would not first perish as a people, that the people (generation) of the Jews would see this happen. That seems to be the commonly accepted understanding of this verse.

Another possible reading would be "This generation (those alive when those signs of tribulation start) shall not pass (die) until all these things be fulfilled." In other words, although the signs and wonders would be great and terrible, they will strike and climax quickly, but the people shall not be wiped out.

Which reading of that verse makes sense of the whole passage? I am rather disinclined to believe that Christ came and we somehow missed it, especially with words like "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and "every eye shall see him" (see Revelation 1:7 KJV ). Every eye has not seen him, either literally or figuratively, the sun has not ceased to give its light, and the tribes of the earth have not mourned when he appeared from the east to the west.

As an additional sanity check, attempting to apply a metaphorical meaning to detailed prophecies might as well make the whole thing of none effect. One can "philosophize away" practically anything in such a manner. When Jesus gave other prophesies, such as "not one stone shall be left standing upon another" they were fulfilled to the letter. Thus I don't see a precedent for "Preterist" interpretation.

There be four generations to the man like the four seasons in the full revolution of a year; autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest. This all goes way back into the beginning, that is, Torah, which cannot be broken. All of the following statements are true:

Exodus 20:5 KJV
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 KJV
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 KJV
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9-10 KJV
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Do we have a contradiction here? Absolutely not. Is there any such thing as a "generational curse" as some have proposed so as to resolve this dilemma? Absolutely not. And the Prophet Ezekiel makes this point even clearer in Ezekiel 18:2-4 and Ezekiel 18:19-20. So what then is meant by the statements quoted above from the Torah concerning visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children unto the third and fourth generation? The only way it can be understood without causing a contradiction is that the first "age" of every man consists of four generations, (and each generation has its own characteristic beastly nature, an offspring, which are a doctrines, which get progressively worse toward the End of the first age of the man). Once a person is willing to believe this from the scripture, (and if such a one loves the Word the same will seek to dissolve all contradiction so as to perfect his or her own doctrine), then these things will begin to jump out in places one never expected to see them.

Here are just a few of the many examples:

Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV
11 There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12 There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14 There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, [great teeth of iron - Daniel 7:7] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, [spirit of the world and prince of the power of the air] he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

 

[way 2 go]

Did Sodom suffer eternal punishment?

no, not that day.

the people of sodom still exist tho

Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[Rosenritter]

There be four generations to the man like the four seasons in the full revolution of a year; autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest. This all goes way back into the beginning, that is, Torah, which cannot be broken. All of the following statements are true:

Exodus 20:5 KJV
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 KJV
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 KJV
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9-10 KJV
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Do we have a contradiction here? Absolutely not. Is there any such thing as a "generational curse" as some have proposed so as to resolve this dilemma? Absolutely not. And the Prophet Ezekiel makes this point even clearer in Ezekiel 18:2-4 and Ezekiel 18:19-20. So what then is meant by the statements quoted above from the Torah concerning visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children unto the third and fourth generation? The only way it can be understood without causing a contradiction is that the first "age" of every man consists of four generations, (and each generation has its own characteristic beastly nature, an offspring, which are a doctrines, which get progressively worse toward the End of the first age of the man). Once a person is willing to believe this from the scripture, (and if such a one loves the Word the same will seek to dissolve all contradiction so as to perfect his or her own doctrine), then these things will begin to jump out in places one never expected to see them.

Here are just a few of the many examples:

Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV
11 There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12 There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14 There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, [great teeth of iron - Daniel 7:7] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, [spirit of the world and prince of the power of the air] he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

I think this is getting a little off topic? But even so I would say that I don't see those connections you suggest as required interpretations.

1) God "visiting the iniquities" down several generations is not the same as being "put to death" for someone else's crime.
2) If you mean to link four instances of the word "generations" from Proverbs 30, then what does the first one have to do with a lion, or the second to a bear, or the third to the leopard? It seems to me that "sharp teeth" is imagery for "devouring the poor" (metaphor)
3) In Matthew 12 it seems to me that Jesus is referring to the same generation each time, not different generations.

But as I was saying, isn't this more than a bit off topic?

 

[daqq]

I think this is getting a little off topic? But even so I would say that I don't see those connections you suggest as required interpretations.

1) God "visiting the iniquities" down several generations is not the same as being "put to death" for someone else's crime.
2) If you mean to link four instances of the word "generations" from Proverbs 30, then what does the first one have to do with a lion, or the second to a bear, or the third to the leopard? It seems to me that "sharp teeth" is imagery for "devouring the poor" (metaphor)
3) In Matthew 12 it seems to me that Jesus is referring to the same generation each time, not different generations.

But as I was saying, isn't this more than a bit off topic?

No, it is not off topic, not even a little bit, because the resurrection occurs at the end of your age; for those that are accounted worthy to attain to the next age, (the age to come, olam haba), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: for neither can they die any more because they are isangeloi, and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection. But believe what you will, it makes no difference to me; in your own appointed times there is One, the Seeker and the Judge, who will change your thinking, (if you overcome in your appointed time; and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

 

[Rosenritter]

No, it is not off topic, not even a little bit, because the resurrection occurs at the end of your age; for those that are accounted worthy to attain to the next age, (the age to come, olam haba), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: for neither can they die any more because they are isangeloi, and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection. But believe what you will, it makes no difference to me; in your own appointed times there is One, the Seeker and the Judge, who will change your thinking, (if you overcome in your appointed time; and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Just saying, Paul seems to describe this as a real event, as an actual comfort for those whose loved ones had already died. Besides that he certainly seems to be saying that those dead shall all rise together. Is it fair to say that Paul would have had a proper understanding of Christ and the resurrection?

 

[daqq]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Just saying, Paul seems to describe this as a real event, as an actual comfort for those whose loved ones had already died. Besides that he certainly seems to be saying that those dead shall all rise together. Is it fair to say that Paul would have had a proper understanding of Christ and the resurrection?

The question is not whether Paul has a proper understanding of those things, but rather, do we understand Paul? Paul, who was Saul, no doubt knows of what he speaks. So according to the context you must first do the will of Elohim. For if not then how can you understand if you are not doing what you know is the will of Elohim? Only those who do His will can even begin to understand; for if not, then you cannot receive the Promise. So what then is the will of Elohim? Yeshua expounds the will of Elohim in all his parables, allegories, idioms, sayings, and doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Paul clearly tells us that he preaches the commandments of Messiah, and that the will of Elohim, if we do it, even concerns our own sanctification. And these things concern cutting off sin from our own "members", that is, to "mortify the deeds of the body", and to "mortify your members which are upon the land", every man has his land with its house-body-temple and its "fields" roundabout. The fields gain tares along the way which are bundled for burning and cast into the fire at the end of your age in the summer of your harvest, (no man knows the day, but the Father only). And when the Master comes will he find faithfulness in your land? The man is the Land, both the adamah-soil of the heart, (Parable of the Sower), and the erets-land outer bounds "commons-profane" outer boundaries of the temple, ("the flesh"). So then, with the mind I serve Torah of Elohim, (Horeb of above), but with the flesh the Torah of sin and death, (Sinai of below), and cut off the evil doers from the Land which the Father has given me to shepherd while the House Master is away in a far journey, (Mark 13:34-37). But if an evil shepherd be allowed to rise up in your dominion, and shall begin to smite the fellow members and house servants of your household, and to eat and drink with the drunken; beware, for the Master shall come in a day when he looks not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him in half, and he will appoint the hypocrite his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

And this is the will of Elohim, even your sanctification, for you are bought with a price and are not your own:

Mark 9:42-49 KJV
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

And as for the "little ones" of which he speaks, Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of the Father which is in the heavens: for the Son of man is come to save that which was lost, and the Absolute Master is the Avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. Three evil shepherds I cut off in one year: an evil wandering right eye always wandering off toward unsightly things like a desert nomad wandering goat; an evil right hand master of wicked works; an evil foot always running swiftly into mischief; and and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that which is dying, let die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of his neighbor. And the Word said to me, Take yet unto yourself the instruments of a foolish shepherd, for behold, I raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young, nor heal what is broken, nor feed what is sound: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened! And the lamp to light of the inside of the body of the man is the eye: if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light; but if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness; if therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is the darkness! So you see, it is not "all eyes" that will see the Holy One coming with the clouds of heaven, but rather, "every eye". Therefore one must get to doing the will of Elohim: Pluck, pluck! Chop, chop! :crackup:

And those "members" of your household which you have been forced to put to sleep will arise in the last day, otherwise why immerse for the dead if they rise not? We wash them in the washing of water into the Word. And when they rise you will not precede them; for the dead in Messiah rise first. Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from henceforth, yea, the Spirit says, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow with them. Therefore, I say, it is ridiculous to think that false doctrines have a consciousness, (ECT), they do not have awareness but simply enter into a man and kill whosoever eats them and spews them out for others to consume. They must therefore go into the fire at the end of your age. All things are done in parables.

:sheep:

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

no, not that day.

the people of sodom still exist tho

Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Excellent, but in light of Sodom and G., if eternal consumption/destruction is the matter, than that is still the picture of complete, eternal destruction.

It goes hand and hand with the verse, nor root nor branch left.

Perhaps the metaphors verbiage of eternal is an emphasis, because the time is now closer than it was the thousands of years before Jesus walked amongst us.


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