Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Nameless, please, I am Jewish! I cannot see things from the Christian point of view. At least not after a few hours dialogue. Anyway, how about you? Why don't you obey Jesus' word about listening to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31)Jesus had said nothing new but what has never been changed; no matter what is said in the gospel of Paul.

John 5:45-46 KJV
(45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
(46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Luke 24:44-47 KJV
(44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
(45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
(47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:51-52 KJV
(51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
(52) And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

It seems to me that if we listen to Moses you are led to accepting Jesus as God and Savior. Justin Martyr had a point that Joshua the Son of Nun was not always named Joshua, but his name had been changed by God. Speaking of this man (Joshua, now) he says:

Exodus 23:20-21 KJV
(20) Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
(21) Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Jesus is the Greek pronunciation for Joshua, is it not? The difference being that Jesus did pardon their transgressions.

Luke 5:20-21 KJV
(20) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
(21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Whom indeed?

But here's something I find interesting:

1 Chronicles 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Adam, Sheth, Enosh,
(2) Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered,
(3) Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech,
(4) Noah...

Hebrew names have meaning, do they not? "Adam" is well recognized as "man" and other names are even translated for us that do not have as intimidate knowledge of Hebrew, such as here:

Genesis 4:25 KJV
(25) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Adam means "man" (some bibles interchange "Adam" for "man" like the Geneva bible) and Seth means "appointed" and so forth. According to this Jewish site (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/44/) the first ten names form an interesting pattern:

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.

Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.

Just pointing out that perhaps some Christians might be listening to Moses rather intently.

 

[Rosenritter]

I just was now able to read that web page. Wondering how the author got all that way to conclude that "blackness of darkness for ever" somehow represented life or eternal awareness. Still hoping to find out what Raven actually thinks... if this goes on too long I'll forget why I was asking (and have to dig back 50 pages...)

 

[Rosenritter]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The wages of sin is death, the bible defines death as the punishment of sin. Eternal death is everlasting. Also note that it says everlasting punishment, not everlasting punishing. Infernalists often confuse nouns and verbs at this point.

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

If you read the text that Jesus quotes in Isaiah, please note that the picture he alludes to is not of living bodies writhing in fire, but of the burning up of dead corpses.

Isaiah 66:24 KJV
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The torment mentioned is for those that worship the beast. The dead cannot worship at all, they do not even know that they are dead (Isa 38:19-19, Psalm 104:33, 146:2, Ecc 9:5-6). If you are interpreting scripture by scripture, smoke that ascends up "for ever" testifies to the mass, height, and volume of the smoke, not a duration of time (Isa 34:10). Besides... the scene being described is before the judgment!

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The devil is not immortal, only Christ hath immortality (2 Ti 1:10). Besides, the devil's total destruction into ashes that he is "no more" is prophesied in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. When an action or state is applied "for ever" to a being that can perish, the action or state lasts permanently for the scope of the being described (Exo 21:6, Deu 15:17).

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Seems like you may have missed the meaning of the parable. The beggar "Lazarus" is gentile, or the Gentile nations. The Jews of that time referred to these peoples as "dogs" (see Matt 15:26, Mark 7:27). The rich man with five brothers is Jewish, or the Jewish nation. Even more specifically his name is JUDAH. He has five brothers,

Genesis 35:23 KJV
(23) The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun:

... and is clothed in purple and fine linen,

Genesis 49:8-11 KJV
(8) Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
(9) Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
(10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
(11) Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

and besides calling Abraham "Father" the Jewish Pharisees were literally of the tribe of Judah.

Matthew 3:9 KJV
(9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Now when the gentile finds himself grafted into the Jewish reward as if he were a son, and Judah himself is cast into the gentile hell ("Hades") he is prophesying a reversal of roles. Judah had its time as a favored nation, but if they will not repent even if one returns from the dead (Jesus did raise his friend also named Lazarus, and also himself came back from the dead) their favored status will be no more. The same message is repeated in other parables such as parable of the vineyard:

Luke 20:15-16 KJV
(15) So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
(16) He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

So unless you mean to make Jesus contradict the law and the prophets and everything that the holy writers of old spake as inspired by the Holy Ghost, maybe the parable should be interpreted using the symbols and definitions already provided by scripture, in context.

 

[Rosenritter]

You did not say it but I understood your implication

God said they would die that day, you say no God did not mean what he said.






same day

Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Num 16:29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.


never did say "I am God"

but you violate your litmus test
of unless explicitly stated I will not believe
don't worry I understand its only when it suits you , like now.




at the time of the cross

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

in Abraham's bosom

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

where Abraham was

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me

now

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

and future

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ANSWER THE QUESTION PLEASE: If "today shalt" means that it WILL happen the same day, how come Solomon, the wisest man on earth, predicted something nigh impossible (you supposed that Solomon expected him to "spontaneously combust") and how come Saul said that David "shalt this day" be his son-in-law when his procedure and conditions obviously took time passing more messages, travel to the enemy country, and armed raids that could under no circumstances take place in the SAME DAY?

This continual dodging the question of yours gets a bit tiring. Seems to me far more likely that you are creating your own meanings of words rather than God, Saul, and Solomon all getting it wrong together. Or do you invent "spiritual death" and "spiritual son in law" special exception rules for these instances too?

Now, if you want to say that you refuse to accept Jesus as God because he never said "I am God" while ignoring where he did state such in the most Absolute Term of "Before Abraham was, I AM" that is your business. Your aggressive ignorance is not my fault.

Exodus 3:13-14 KJV
(13) And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
(14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You've brought forth a new passage oft misquoted (and when not misquoted oft misused) that hasn't come up recently. I thank you for that. I'll quote it and ask you a question:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In verse 2 Paul says that we desired to be clothed upon with our house from heaven, but in verse 3 he says we shall not be found naked. He goes on to say that we put on this heavenly house at the resurrection of the dead. Now, if we shall not be found naked, but this house is put on at the resurrection of the dead, where is there any room for roaming around "naked" as you seem to suggest?

The Bible also says "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) ... how come it does not say "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then Abraham's bosom or the Fires of Hades, then the Judgment?" How could Paul have gotten this so wrong? Yet he says death comes first and the next moment judgment... Even though that judgment might be thousands of years away...

Which is entirely consistent with what I have been showing you the Bible says about the state of death. But not so consistent with your version.

 

[Rosenritter]

My name is not "Timmy". That's just something Resodko/okdoser calls me when he wants to make it seem like I am a child who doesn't know what I am talking about. I've studied the Bible very closely for many years, and unlike people like Sod and Raven, I actually believe what it says.

I didn't remember how to spell the full name. Had no intention to belittle. If it makes things even you can call me Rosy a couple times.

As for why I mentioned it, have heard some try to make case that ECT exists for a beast and false prophet which is next assumed to be people. Wanted to emphasise that such wasn't valid English translation of the Greek regardless. There is no verb after "beast and false prophet" and certainly no words like "also" or "still are" or "are being tormented." The reason why NIV and KJV has a verb like "are" is because it is required by our grammar, but nothing more can be read into that.

 

[Timotheos]

I didn't remember how to spell the full name. Had no intention to belittle. If it makes things even you can call me Rosy a couple times.

As for why I mentioned it, have heard some try to make case that ECT exists for a beast and false prophet which is next assumed to be people. Wanted to emphasise that such wasn't valid English translation of the Greek regardless. There is no verb after "beast and false prophet" and certainly no words like "also" or "still are" or "are being tormented." The reason why NIV and KJV has a verb like "are" is because it is required by our grammar, but nothing more can be read into that.

I checked the Greek and you are right, excellent job. Here is the verse in Greek:
καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

It never hurts to check what the original actually says. The word καὶ means "and", but it can mean "also". The θηρίον and the ψευδοπροφήτης are not human, and in the Book of Revelation aren't intended to indicate humans. The beast has seven heads and ten horns, it obviously represents something other than a human. I also believe that the false prophet isn't representing an actual person. Given the genre, it is most likely that the beast represents government (which will end) and the false prophet represents false religion which will also end. This verse is showing that the devil will be destroyed along with false government and false religion.

 

[Rosenritter]

I checked the Greek and you are right, excellent job. Here is the verse in Greek:
καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

It never hurts to check what the original actually says. The word καὶ means "and", but it can mean "also". The θηρίον and the ψευδοπροφήτης are not human, and in the Book of Revelation aren't intended to indicate humans. The beast has seven heads and ten horns, it obviously represents something other than a human. I also believe that the false prophet isn't representing an actual person. Given the genre, it is most likely that the beast represents government (which will end) and the false prophet represents false religion which will also end. This verse is showing that the devil will be destroyed along with false government and false religion.

The KJV put the word "are" in italics there to indicate that it was a word added for translation or grammar purposes rather than from a word to word translation.

 

[way 2 go]

ANSWER THE QUESTION PLEASE: If "today shalt" means that it WILL happen the same day, how come Solomon, the wisest man on earth, predicted something nigh impossible (you supposed that Solomon expected him to "spontaneously combust") and how come Saul said that David "shalt this day" be his son-in-law when his procedure and conditions obviously took time passing more messages, travel to the enemy country, and armed raids that could under no circumstances take place in the SAME DAY?

God who created everything his word trumps Solomon and Saul

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."


Exo 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.


Mar 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the rooster crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Num 16:29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.

This continual dodging the question of yours gets a bit tiring. Seems to me far more likely that you are creating your own meanings of words rather than God, Saul, and Solomon all getting it wrong together. Or do you invent "spiritual death" and "spiritual son in law" special exception rules for these instances too?

you can count on Gods word.

physically or spiritually ?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now, if you want to say that you refuse to accept Jesus as God because he never said "I am God" while ignoring where he did state such in the most Absolute Term of "Before Abraham was, I AM" that is your business. Your aggressive ignorance is not my fault.

Jesus is God he never said "I am God"

:think:

Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

You've brought forth a new passage oft misquoted (and when not misquoted oft misused) that hasn't come up recently. I thank you for that. I'll quote it and ask you a question:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In verse 2 Paul says that we desired to be clothed upon with our house from heaven, but in verse 3 he says we shall not be found naked. He goes on to say that we put on this heavenly house at the resurrection of the dead. Now, if we shall not be found naked, but this house is put on at the resurrection of the dead, where is there any room for roaming around "naked" as you seem to suggest?

straw man

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2Co_5:4 ... not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed

The Bible also says "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) ... how come it does not say "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then Abraham's bosom or the Fires of Hades,then the Judgment?"

post cross Abraham's bosom not needed anymore, Christians spirits go to heaven

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

also explains Lazarus as being past tense

Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

How could Paul have gotten this so wrong?

better question is how do you get it wrong ?

Yet he says death comes first and the next moment judgment... Even though that judgment might be thousands of years away...

straw man , no time given.


Heb 9:27...and after that comes judgment,

Which is entirely consistent with what I have been showing you the Bible says about the state of death. But not so consistent with your version.

how do you explain ....

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

 

[Timotheos]

God who created everything his word trumps Solomon and Saul

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Since God said they would die, who are you to say that they will live forever in hell being tormented?
It sounds like you are saying "Did God really say 'you shall surely die', surely you will not die."

The origin of the doctrine that everyone is immortal regardless of sin is the devil, the serpent in the garden. Therefore Unconditional Immortality is a Satanic Doctrine. The Bible teaches Conditional Immortality, a person can only receive immortality as the gift of God. The Bible says "But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" and "whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Sometimes, unfortunately, the doctrines of Satan are much more popular than the doctrines of God.

 

[way 2 go]

Since God said they would die, who are you to say that they will live forever in hell being tormented?
It sounds like you are saying "Did God really say 'you shall surely die', surely you will not die."

strawman

the bible says "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

I believe God

and that they died that day .

Timotheos you deny they died that day.


Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

 

[Rosenritter]

Way 2 Go, it seems that you don't believe God at all.

If you believe Jesus was God,
(and you have claimed that you do)

and if you believe that the gospels are accurate,
(I assume you will concede this although your words indicate that you may not)

... then God directly said "The scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35. Likewise, 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

This means that ultimately Genesis, Samuel, and Kings all have a common author, that is, God. They were first penned in the same language (Hebrew) and as such if there is any doubt as to what a phrase means, one can see how that same Holy Spirit spoke in another place in different context. Yet in practice you reject this. It seems that you claim some combination of objections such as:

1. King Saul was blabbering nonsense when he told David "To day you shalt be my son in law in one of the twain" (because according to the plan he told David, he first required a military expedition before David could earn his daughter's hand in marriage)

2. King Solomon, granted wisdom exceeding all men on earth by God himself, was an idiot who thought that his enemy Shimei would "spontaneously combust" (YOUR WORDS, Way2Go) should he step foot across the River Kidron.

... alternatively perhaps you think that the author of Samuel and Kings must have written it wrong. You don't seem to consider for a moment that when your interpretation forces contradiction in the rest of the Bible, that perhaps your interpretation is at fault rather than the Bible itself.

When God speaks in Genesis 2:17 and pronounces the sentence of death on Adam on the day of his transgression, you claim that a "secret death" took place immediately. Contrary to your tenacious denials, God also tells us in the very same book that Adam died 930 years later.

To create a cover for your philosophy, you invent a "spiritual death" that you conveniently substitute whenever the going seems to get too rough for you. However, the Bible knows of no such "spiritual death" and Paul plainly states that it is appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). It does not say "It is appointed unto men once to die, then to die again later, and then the judgment, and then the second death."

As a continuation of the point above, the fact that there is a second death (Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8) proves that the death preceding is the first death. There is no room for imaginary philosophical "spiritual" death if one is using scripture as their guide because the ordinals (first and second) are already assigned and do not leave a number for your imaginary "spiritual death."

But you claim you are wiser than Solomon (and not just wiser, you lower Solomon to a foolish idiot) and your interpretation of Paul makes Paul contradict himself.

Your arguments do not make any sense; it is as if you don't even understand your own argument. For example, why do you post passages where a pronouncement is made and it so happens that the carrying out happens in the same day? That doesn't prove anything.

You're killing me with inane repetition of failed arguments. Yes, I suppose in once sense Jesus never said "I am God" ... in ENGLISH. Instead he said it in Hebrew, "I AM" is what he said, in the same fashion that he introduced himself to Moses and Israel from the Burning Bush. When I first looked at this board I was asking "does anyone ever yield a point to anyone else?" The answer was "no" and now I see why. Actually, I have seen Timotheos yield a point... but you cling to failed arguments like a Pit Bull on a training glove.

You wrote:
"post cross Abraham's bosom not needed anymore, Christians spirits go to heaven"

What was that supposed to mean? That philosophy certainly isn't found in scripture. I've read the whole scripture and it's not there. I've read it again and it still wasn't there.

This is the best question you have? (below)

You asked, "how do you explain ...."

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

You're killing me with your aggressive ignorance (this is how you described your tactic originally!) And as you already admitted, out of those passages where you insist that "death" means your "spiritual death", there are none that cannot also be explained by simple metaphorical use.

How do I explain? I explain that you should read Paul. He uses no such explanations or philosophical constructs of "spiritual death" in this context (or any context!) but uses life and death as metaphor for that which leads unto death or that which leads unto life. People speak that way normally all the time. You have not once ever given anything that constitutes a context that would require your "spiritual death" construct.

I don't see any thing to be gained by arguing with someone who is willfully obstinate. In a way you have done a service because when it can be seen that arguments(?) of that sort are what are used to support "Eternal Conscious Torment" maybe some people will see that and think again. On the other hand it looks like we are beating on an unarmed opponent...

Acts 13:44-46 KJV
(44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
(45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
(46) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

There's precedent on giving up on someone. Yes, calling yourself wiser than Solomon and establishing your own doctrine sans proof and in opposition to the whole scripture, that is a little bit presumptuous.

Oh, almost forgot. You didn't say what you meant by this but I'll step out on a limb and guess...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That passage is correctly written (some versions translate it wrong.) The commandment that the thief would be in paradise was drafted, declared, and stamped that very day. The fulfillment, however, will occur in the resurrection of the just. Should you claim that "The thief was in heaven that day" how do we prove you false?

1) Jesus was not in heaven that day. God lives in heaven, but when Jesus rose from the dead THREE DAYS LATER he says that he had NOT YET ascended to heaven.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

2) Jesus was not in heaven while he was in the grave. In fact, Peter describes his soul as being raised, not left in hell. This means that his soul was in hell until he was raised. This doesn't work well for your forced reading.

Acts 2:31-32 KJV
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Do I think you will have a moment and suddenly acknowledge the scripture? Nay, I predict that you will speak against Jesus himself and deny what he so clearly said, that he had not yet ascended to heaven. How can the thief be "in paradise with Jesus" when Jesus isn't in Paradise? Do you understand the problem?

On the other hand, if Jesus has the same grasp of language that was shared by Saul and Solomon (and also Webster's dictionary and our classical English grammar texts) then he spoke rightly, giving his solemn promise that very day, to be fulfilled in its proper time at his return, when he comes into his kingdom.

Luke 23:42 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus was not God at all. For 33 years of his life, he used to call himself "Ben Adam" aka a mortal man. He was the son of Joseph and Mary; biological son, I mean. Any thing according to Mat. 1:18 would be tantamount to being Greek Mythology. The Myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

Does Isaiah count as Greek mythology?

Isaiah 7:10-14 KJV
(10) Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
(11) Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
(12) But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
(13) And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
(14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

One of the objections I have heard to this passage is the claim that "virgin" should merely mean "young woman."

However, this was the sign promised to Ahab, which by nature was supposed to be miraculous. It is no miracle for a young woman to conceive by ordinary means through a man, and the meaning of the underlying Hebrew word is used for "young unmarried woman" rather than "promiscuous woman."

 

[way 2 go]

Way 2 Go, it seems that you don't believe God at all.

If you believe Jesus was God,
(and you have claimed that you do)

and if you believe that the gospels are accurate,
(I assume you will concede this although your words indicate that you may not)

... then God directly said "The scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35.

how do you mean that ?

obviously you mean this is true...oh wait you don't
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

for context:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."

Likewise, 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."


This means that ultimately Genesis, Samuel, and Kings all have a common author, that is, God. They were first penned in the same language (Hebrew) and as such if there is any doubt as to what a phrase means, one can see how that same Holy Spirit spoke in another place in different context. Yet in practice you reject this. It seems that you claim some combination of objections such as:

1. King Saul was blabbering nonsense when he told David "To day you shalt be my son in law in one of the twain" (because according to the plan he told David, he first required a military expedition before David could earn his daughter's hand in marriage)

2. King Solomon, granted wisdom exceeding all men on earth by God himself, was an idiot who thought that his enemy Shimei would "spontaneously combust" (YOUR WORDS, Way2Go) should he step foot across the River Kidron.

:rotfl: spontaneously combust

God inspired the writer to write.
God did not inspire Judas to hang himself


Mat 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.

... alternatively perhaps you think that the author of Samuel and Kings must have written it wrong. You don't seem to consider for a moment that when your interpretation forces contradiction in the rest of the Bible, that perhaps your interpretation is at fault rather than the Bible itself.

When God speaks in Genesis 2:17 and pronounces the sentence of death on Adam on the day of his transgression, you claim that a "secret death" took place immediately. Contrary to your tenacious denials, God also tells us in the very same book that Adam died 930 years later.

yes they died that day God said they would.
you say no

To create a cover for your philosophy, you invent a "spiritual death" that you conveniently substitute whenever the going seems to get too rough for you. However, the Bible knows of no such "spiritual death" and Paul plainly states that it is appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). It does not say "It is appointed unto men once to die, then to die again later, and then the judgment, and then the second death."

physical death once :yawn:

As a continuation of the point above, the fact that there is a second death (Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8) proves that the death preceding is the first death. There is no room for imaginary philosophical "spiritual" death if one is using scripture as their guide because the ordinals (first and second) are already assigned and do not leave a number for your imaginary "spiritual death."

did the 1st death annihilate :nono:

But you claim you are wiser than Solomon (and not just wiser, you lower Solomon to a foolish idiot) and your interpretation of Paul makes Paul contradict himself.

having to lie about me now , sad

Your arguments do not make any sense; it is as if you don't even understand your own argument. For example, why do you post passages where a pronouncement is made and it so happens that the carrying out happens in the same day? That doesn't prove anything.

who made the pronouncement or who was required to act ?
since your not good at this the answer is God

You're killing me with inane repetition of failed arguments. Yes, I suppose in once sense Jesus never said "I am God" ... in ENGLISH.

took you long enough.

Instead he said it in Hebrew, "I AM" is what he said, in the same fashion that he introduced himself to Moses and Israel from the Burning Bush. When I first looked at this board I was asking "does anyone ever yield a point to anyone else?" The answer was "no" and now I see why. Actually, I have seen Timotheos yield a point... but you cling to failed arguments like a Pit Bull on a training glove.

well you just conceded Jesus never said "I am God"

You wrote:
"post cross Abraham's bosom not needed anymore, Christians spirits go to heaven"

What was that supposed to mean? That philosophy certainly isn't found in scripture. I've read the whole scripture and it's not there. I've read it again and it still wasn't there.

:shocked:

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

those in prison were human spirits
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

This is the best question you have? (below)

You asked, "how do you explain ...."

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

You're killing me with your aggressive ignorance (this is how you described your tactic originally!) And as you already admitted, out of those passages where you insist that "death" means your "spiritual death", there are none that cannot also be explained by simple metaphorical use.

How do I explain? I explain that you should read Paul. He uses no such explanations or philosophical constructs of "spiritual death" in this context (or any context!) but uses life and death as metaphor for that which leads unto death or that which leads unto life. People speak that way normally all the time. You have not once ever given anything that constitutes a context that would require your "spiritual death" construct.

Paul says it lead to his death not it was going to kill him , it did kill him,
it had taken place already.

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

I don't see any thing to be gained by arguing with someone who is willfully obstinate. In a way you have done a service because when it can be seen that arguments(?) of that sort are what are used to support "Eternal Conscious Torment" maybe some people will see that and think again. On the other hand it looks like we are beating on an unarmed opponent...

run out of substance

There's precedent on giving up on someone. Yes, calling yourself wiser than Solomon and establishing your own doctrine sans proof and in opposition to the whole scripture, that is a little bit presumptuous.

strawman

how about quoting what I actually said

God who created everything his word trumps Solomon and Saul

God says something he has the power to bring it to pass
people do no not have that power

"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Oh, almost forgot. You didn't say what you meant by this but I'll step out on a limb and guess...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That passage is correctly written (some versions translate it wrong.) The commandment that the thief would be in paradise was drafted, declared, and stamped that very day. The fulfillment, however, will occur in the resurrection of the just. Should you claim that "The thief was in heaven that day" how do we prove you false?

1) Jesus was not in heaven that day. God lives in heaven, but when Jesus rose from the dead THREE DAYS LATER he says that he had NOT YET ascended to heaven.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

2) Jesus was not in heaven while he was in the grave. In fact, Peter describes his soul as being raised, not left in hell. This means that his soul was in hell until he was raised. This doesn't work well for your forced reading.


Acts 2:31-32 KJV
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Do I think you will have a moment and suddenly acknowledge the scripture? Nay, I predict that you will speak against Jesus himself and deny what he so clearly said, that he had not yet ascended to heaven. How can the thief be "in paradise with Jesus" when Jesus isn't in Paradise? Do you understand the problem?

On the other hand, if Jesus has the same grasp of language that was shared by Saul and Solomon (and also Webster's dictionary and our classical English grammar texts) then he spoke rightly, giving his solemn promise that very day, to be fulfilled in its proper time at his return, when he comes into his kingdom.

Luke 23:42 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

so many errors :jawdrop:

ascended

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

as in I have not ascended until the second coming as Jesus has now. Act 1:9

he went to heaven he did not stay
Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.



"when he comes into his kingdom"

so you use the person on the cross "confession of faith" for the time line
to deny Jesus words

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

rather than Jesus "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


your saying God lied again but then again from your first post
I said you were not interested in the truth.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Amazing Light To Share.....

I pray none of us find out the genuine answer. [emoji50]


Signature: "If I've offended you, that's me getting in the way of Jesus. If you search the Scriptures open to only the guidance of God's Spirit to Theologically level me..... I've succeeded."

 

[Rosenritter]

Way 2 Go, don't think that what you just did will slip by me without being noticed. When you quoted Luke 23:43 earlier, I acknowledged that the passage was correct. This is what you said in post 5328 just two rants above:

you can count on Gods word.

physically or spiritually ?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Except that didn't turn out the way you expected. So you switched bible versions until you found one that said something different. Here's what you just said now:

run out of substance

strawman

how about quoting what I actually said

so you use the person on the cross "confession of faith" for the time line
to deny Jesus words

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

rather than Jesus "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


your saying God lied again but then again from your first post
I said you were not interested in the truth.

I added the boldface for emphasis. The irony seems pretty plain to me. First you say that "you can count on God's word" but when that didn't work for you, you used a "bait and switch" without saying what you did. At first you used King James, but not the second time. The best part is when you taunt "How about actually quoting what I said." I just did.

...

...

Here's the passage in Greek. No one disputes the wording or preservation of this passage.

Luke 23:43 GNT-TR
(43) και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

The difference lies on that one boldfaced word σημερον (semeron). Without context the word covers the range of both the English words "shall" and "will." Because the Greek word is broader, context is required to determine whether it is a pronouncement (shall) or a fulfillment (will) occurring that day. The relevant context and data is this:

1) The thief requested to be remembered when Christ "came into his Kingdom"
2) Christ has not yet come into his Kingdom. His parable in Luke 19:13 says that he will first go away into a far country, and then return having received the kingdom and begin his reign.
3) Christ himself states after three days later that he had not yet ascended to his Father.
4) Peter says that because Jesus was raised we know that his soul had not been left in hell.
5) Christ spoke as our God and Future King not in the manner of making a guesswork prediction

For all the reasons above, the traditional translation of "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise is justified." This is the form chosen from the earliest English translations through modern day in translations such as these:

Wycliffe's 13th century translation:
43 And Jhesus seide to hym, Treuli Y seie to thee, this dai thou schalt be with me in paradise.

Tyndale's 16th century translation:
Luke 23:43 Tyndale
(43) And Iesus sayde vnto him: Verely I saye vnto the to daye shalt thou be with me in Paradyse.

The Geneva Bible 1587,
Luke 23:43 Geneva
(43) Then Iesus said vnto him, Verely I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

The King James, first printed 1611 but reprinted with standardized spelling 1769:
Luke 23:43 KJV
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible:
Luke 23:43 DRB
(43) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.


The Revised Version as recently as 1885,
Luke 23:43 RV
(43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

And the American Standard Version, 1901
Luke 23:43 ASV
(43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

And even very recently the NASB 1960-1995:
Luke 23:43 NASB
(43) And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


I concede that you may have found a bible that has translated the passage differently which does result in a different meaning. Some of the more recent translations started being written that way in the mid 20th century. Congratulations, you managed to find one of the ones which I had already acknowledged had improper translation.

Are you able to continue if you are limited to responding from the King James Bible? I am willing to abide by the Authorized Text (that's another name for the King James) - it's been an accepted standard by Christians for hundreds of years. Or do you require hopping back and forth between unlabeled versions? There might be a hundred different versions out there that are custom made for different doctrines, you could have a lot of latitude.

 

[Rosenritter]

how do you mean that ?

obviously you mean this is true...oh wait you don't
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

for context:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."


:rotfl: spontaneously combust

God inspired the writer to write.
God did not inspire Judas to hang himself


Mat 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.




yes they died that day God said they would.
you say no



physical death once :yawn:


did the 1st death annihilate :nono:



having to lie about me now , sad




who made the pronouncement or who was required to act ?
since your not good at this the answer is God



took you long enough.







well you just conceded Jesus never said "I am God"




:shocked:

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

those in prison were human spirits
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;



Paul says it lead to his death not it was going to kill him , it did kill him,
it had taken place already.

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.




run out of substance



strawman

how about quoting what I actually said

God who created everything his word trumps Solomon and Saul

God says something he has the power to bring it to pass
people do no not have that power

"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."



so many errors :jawdrop:

ascended

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

as in I have not ascended until the second coming as Jesus has now. Act 1:9

he went to heaven he did not stay
Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.



"when he comes into his kingdom"

so you use the person on the cross "confession of faith" for the time line
to deny Jesus words

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

rather than Jesus "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


your saying God lied again but then again from your first post
I said you were not interested in the truth.

As a disclaimer, I have trouble understanding what Way-2-Go is thinking sometimes because the post seems chaotic. But some thoughts:

1. Have no idea what is meant by posting Psalm 82, as it does not seem to reflect any relevant point, nor does it change the meaning of "the scripture cannot be broken" (which is not from Psalm 82 anyway.) Red herring perhaps?

2. Very bizarre that Way 2 Go laughs at *HIMSELF* by mocking "spontaneously combust." Go back a few posts and you'll see that was his ORIGINAL ANSWER as to what he said Solomon believed would happen. What do you say when someone makes fun of themselves?

3. Another red herring with reference to Judas hanging himself. Has nothing to do with current topic, no clue given in post as to how Way 2 Go thinks it may connect.

4. Way2Go uses a type of straw man attack of "does the first death annihilate" + "nonono...." "Annihilate" is most often used as a short form of "which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Granted that the term "annihilate" is not used in the English text, which is why I stick with biblical terms that are used such as "death" and "destroy body and soul" and "perish" and "burn up" and "reduced to ashes" and "be no more."

5. At this point where I'm reading it is difficult to tell what he is referring to, but he creates an non-specific question, says he won't wait for an answer, and answers himself?

6. Claims that Jesus preached to "human spirits" in prison, disregarding that Peter defines those spirits as "sometimes disobedient in the time of Noah" which Genesis calls the "Sons of God" (as opposed to the daughters of men, Job also defines "Sons of God" as being angels.) Creates his own doctrine divorced from any scriptural support.

7. Claims that I said "Jesus never said he was God." For clarification, I said he didn't say that in English but rather in Hebrew. Way 2 Go may not be aware that English didn't exist at that time.

8. Proceeds to swap bible versions for his now preferred version of Luke 23:43 with flawed grammar that does make Christ a liar: promising that he would be in heaven that day when scripture tells us he was certainly not in heaven for the next several days (mentioned already in post above)

9. Some more sporadic thought flow that doesn't say what it is intending to prove.

10. More of the same old "you are saying God lied" and "you are not interested in truth" charges.

Way 2 Go, would you please be able to do us the favor of writing coherently? Perhaps a little correct capitalization and grammar and sane thought flow and a few less inserted animations and emoticons? Maybe go back and edit your posts when they don't read like normal English?

 

[patrick jane]

well you just conceded Jesus never said "I am God"

Yes He did - I Am - that's why they crucified Him

John 8:58 KJV -

 

[Timotheos]

strawman

the bible says "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

I believe God

and that they died that day .

Timotheos you deny they died that day.


Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

READ THE BIBLE: They did not die that day!

I do not know how I can make it any clearer for you. They died a different day. The Bible tells when Adam died and it was not the day he ate the fruit. You are mistaken. You should admit your mistake. You should read Genesis 5:5 which tells when Adam died. Adam was 930 years old when he died, are you claiming that the Adam ate the fruit when he was 930 years old, then conceived Cain, Able and Seth and died later that same day!? Your argument is erroneous, to put it mildly.

It is not a strawman argument. Since God said "you will die", how is it that you believe that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell? "You will die" is the opposite of "surely you will not die". This is what we are discussing, whether the wicked will perish or whether they will be tormented in hell forever. Since God said "you will surely die" that is what we should accept. If the wicked live forever in hell, then the Serpent was correct when he said "Surely you will not die". It is not a strawman argument, it is the core issue of our disagreement, Whether we should believe God or Satan. If you are correct, then the wicked will never die, and Satan is right and God is wrong. If I am correct, then the wicked will perish and Satan was lying and God was telling the truth.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes He did - I Am - that's why they crucified Him

John 8:58 KJV -

But he wasn't speaking in English so Way 2 Go doesn't think it counts.

Patrick Jane, would you share with me what syntax you are using to get your quote to be linked to different bible versions? I'd message but you have that feature disabled.

 

[way 2 go]

Yes He did - I Am - that's why they crucified Him

John 8:58 KJV -

Jesus never said "I am God"

I noticed you did not quote the verse where Jesus said "I am God"

the litmus test of the ECT deniers is if the bible does not
specifically state something then it is not true
Jesus never said "I am God" and Jesus is God