Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[way 2 go]

To set the record straight Way2Go, I have not said God lied,

You did not say it but I understood your implication

God said they would die that day, you say no God did not mean what he said.

I have said that you must be incapable of understanding English grammar.

you further prove my point when responding to my examples. Saul and Solomon both spoke in the same fashion, commanding "thou shalt" on the same day for events that could not possibly come to pass in that day. Your answer that Solomon expected Shimei to "spontaneously combust" when he left his jurisdiction is positively absurd. How do you expect to be taken seriously by others?

same day

Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Num 16:29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.

A side note, your statement is wrong. Jesus did say he was God. Four times in Revelation he says he is the first and the last, beginning and end. That is the unique title of God almighty from Isaiah. To the Pharisees he identifies himself as "I AM" (Exodus 3:6, John 8:58) and he also named himself as the Son of God who will stand in judgment over the Pharisees that set themselves as gods, at the end of the world (Psalm 82, John 10:34). It's not that Jesus did not say he was God, its just that you don't know your Bible.

never did say "I am God"

but you violate your litmus test
of unless explicitly stated I will not believe
don't worry I understand its only when it suits you , like now.

May I ask you a question about your reading of Mark 12:27? Jesus was speaking to the Saducces and said that the express purpose of his statement was to prove the Resurrection of the Dead. How therefore does "he is the God of the living" prove that Abraham was currently alive? For if Abraham lives now then there is no need of resurrection for God to be "God of the living."

tell me then Mr. Way, how does Jesus's answer prove that the dead do rise if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive in any fashion?

at the time of the cross

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

in Abraham's bosom

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

where Abraham was

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me

now

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

and future

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[way 2 go]

1. You are not Raven.
2. Your answer makes no sense.

If you want to answer the question, it was "when you read Revelation 20 do you assume the devil is immortal? If yes, why."

If you meant that you do not assume the devil is immortal than what did you mean by "entropy?" Regardless I still want Raven's answer.

no natural laws of thermal dynamics

no energy transferred or transformed.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about the quality of energy. It states that as energy is transferred or transformed, more and more of it is wasted.

 

[Bright Raven]

1. You are not Raven.
2. Your answer makes no sense.

If you want to answer the question, it was "when you read Revelation 20 do you assume the devil is immortal? If yes, why."

If you meant that you do not assume the devil is immortal than what did you mean by "entropy?" Regardless I still want Raven's answer.

http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html

 

[Rosenritter]

http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html

Links do not witness testimony make as they cannot be cross examined or made to answer for error. Much experience seeing links be used as evasion in past...

I am more interested in your answer. This way if I have a question about it I can ask you directly, or hold you accountable, depending on which is applicable.

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees before a multitude, and we are told that Jesus did not speak before the multitude without parable. How do you figure that this story is not a parable?

that the beggar is named but not the rich man
every body Knows the names of rich people
but nobody knows the names of beggars except God

Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

By the way, if it is not a parable then you now have some additional problems, including that salvation is given as a reward for being poor, and torments as the turnabout simply for being rich. Forgiveness or faith don't enter into that equation.

no problems


Abraham's bosom is the side of faith, so Lazarus had faith

Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

bad litmus test, was how to be saved the point ?

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

just call God a liar and dismiss Lazarus altogether .

Luke 16:25 KJV
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I am guessing that you are not a beggar and have received a few good things in your lifetime. You are "going to hell" then I suppose. Too bad for you. Say hello to Hitler for us, maybe you will be taking anger management classes together.

calling Jesus a liar, good choice

After you've got your asbestos underwear packed try this question. Can you really not think of a famous Jew that the Pharisees would recognize and identify with who had FIVE brothers, and could call Abraham "father?" One whom might be associated with purple and fine linen? If you read the scripture you might find the answer, and maybe.... Just MAYBE... You might understand the parable.

you have undeniable proof like the bible literally says what you claim ?

or is it suggestive enough for you to claim Jesus lied.

 

[Timotheos]

I believe what the scripture says;

Revelation 20:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you believe it?

You avoided answering my question. Why should I answer your question before you answer the question I asked you? After all, you are the one making the accusation that I am arguing against what Scripture says.

I'll giver you a second chance to answer plainly:

Read John 3:16 and tell me exactly what it says in your Bible, and then tell me why you don't believe what it says.

I want you to tell me if you AGREE or DISAGREE with this statement. Don't play games, just tell me plainly if you agree or disagree:
The wicked shall be destroyed for ever.

 

[Timotheos]

Eternal death could never be a punishment. Punishment cannot be applied on unconsciousness. To be punished,
one must be conscious and there is no consciousness in the grave.

I see. So you think that it would be just as good to be dead as it is to be alive.
I completely disagree. I've heard that argument before and it is completely insane. It says that a person can't be punished by being killed. Tell that to the states that execute mass murderers. I'm not just being mean by calling the idea that death is just as good as life insane. It is literally "not sane" to think that being dead is just as good as being alive.

 

[Timotheos]

Raven, are you assuming the devil is immortal when you read that passage? Yes or no. If yes, why?

Timmy, note that both my KJV and his NIV do not say that the beast and false prophet are being tormented or still existing in that fire. Wanted to point that out earlier but missed the chance.

My name is not "Timmy". That's just something Resodko/okdoser calls me when he wants to make it seem like I am a child who doesn't know what I am talking about. I've studied the Bible very closely for many years, and unlike people like Sod and Raven, I actually believe what it says.

 

[ok doser]

1. You are not Raven.

neither am i :idunno:



quick show of hands - who else here isn't Raven? :wave2:

 

[Timotheos]

neither am i :idunno:



quick show of hands - who else here isn't Raven? :wave2:

No one here is Raven. He left when he was unable to answer a simple question.

 

[Timotheos]

http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html

Your argument by copy link shows that the devil will be destroyed. This refutes your argument that the devil will live forever in the lake of fire being tortured alive by the flames. If not even the Devil himself will be tortured alive forever, why would God torture humans alive forever in hell?

The doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell is not sane. The Bible says what the penalty for sin is, and it is not eternal conscious torment. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You Tormentists should stop fighting against what the Bible says and just accept that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more JUST AS THE BIBLE SAYS.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

 

[Ben Masada]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

There is neither everlasting punishment nor eternal life for the righteous. Both, soon or later will end up in Sheol aka the grave. That's an eternal condition but neither of punishment nor of reward. There is nothing eternal about man. God only enjoys eternity. (Genesis 3:22,23)

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Matthew 25

41"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Mark 9

42But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

These are them. An excellent example of the most common scriptures used to justify that our Lord and Savior is a Torturous Lord, without mercy to those that are lost.

They are all clearly wrapped in Parable, why then are so many quick to discount the many verses of Jesus that are out right spoken in literalism and the words of the OT that are spoken in direct reference to this matter that say destroyed. Specifically, no root or branch left, which ties into Jesus explaining that He is the true Vine and we are the branches?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html

Is Jesus a torturous God?

 

[Ben Masada]

Is Jesus a torturous God?

Jesus was not God at all. For 33 years of his life, he used to call himself "Ben Adam" aka a mortal man. He was the son of Joseph and Mary; biological son, I mean. Any thing according to Mat. 1:18 would be tantamount to being Greek Mythology. The Myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Jesus was not God at all. For 33 years of his life, he used to call himself "ben adam" aka a mortal man. He was the son of Joseph and Mary; biological son, I mean. Any thing according to Mat. 1:18 would be tantamount
to being Greek Mythology. The Myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

This is where our hearts disagree, but in that, I still count you my friend and hope that you find this less than a reason to not count me a friend as well.

 

[way 2 go]

neither am i :idunno:



quick show of hands - who else here isn't Raven? :wave2:

:wave2:

 

[Ben Masada]

This is where our hearts disagree, but in that, I still count you my friend and hope that you find this less than a reason to not count me a friend as well.

Nameless, please, I am Jewish! I cannot see things from the Christian point of view. At least not after a few hours dialogue. Anyway, how about you? Why don't you obey Jesus' word about listening to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31)Jesus had said nothing new but what has never been changed; no matter what is said in the gospel of Paul.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Nameless, please, I am Jewish! I cannot see things from the Christian point of view. At least not after a few hours dialogue. Anyway, how about you? Why don't you obey Jesus' word about listening to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31)Jesus had said nothing new but what has never been changed; no matter what is said in the gospel of Paul.

Ben, you are always great with your questions and respectful on the most delicate matters. Forgive me for falling short, and oi.. I hope you turn a blind eye when I'm locked in debate with some here. Lol

I don't read that He was saying to obey Moses in those verses.

In context He is literally prophesying His death and resurrection.

It's that old Goy everything is about Jesus blinders.

Lol. [emoji3]