Yes, that should be pretty funny. I can't wait to see what happens when you tell God that He has to torture someone forever.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
I believe what the scripture says;
Revelation 20:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you believe it?
Rosenritter
New member
Raven, are you assuming the devil is immortal when you read that passage? Yes or no. If yes, why?
Timmy, note that both my KJV and his NIV do not say that the beast and false prophet are being tormented or still existing in that fire. Wanted to point that out earlier but missed the chance.
Do you have eternal life? Yes or no. I have eternal life. The scripture is clear. If it says the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever and that is what it means. Why would you question it? Are you saying that the scriptures are in error?
Rosenritter
New member
I can think of examples where men attempted to intervene and ask for mercy on behalf of others. Abraham and Moses come to mind. God listened to Abraham at least and agreed with Moses. He did not punish them for challenging him in this way.
I can also think of examples when men called for death and burning up others and God rebuked the requesters instead. I am thinking of Jonah and Christ's apostles. He took away Jonah's shade to teach him a lesson and told his disciples that their spirit was not from God but from somewhere else.
The only judgment parable that I can think of that has torment is when one who had been forgiven much would not forgive something little to someone else. In that parable the master revoked the forgiveness and delivered that man to the tormentors instead, until he paid his debt himself.
Matthew 18:32-34 KJV
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: [33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? [34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Outside of the parable, how does one pay the debt of sin if Christ's grace is revoked because of a bloodthirsty heart? The wages of sin is death.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
they want to be nicer than God :idunno:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
According to Jesus, the entire book speaks of Him.
But you are avoiding a direct answer about Revelation above all books.
The question remains in direct relation to Revelation.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
In that light, does God in full Biblical Revelation present Himself as a Torturous God or a Merciful God?
Rosenritter
New member
I think I will take my chances having faith in the Goodness of God along with Abraham and Moses rather than joining Tertullian and yourself hoping for Sadistic Pleasure of watching Someone Else in Torment.
Rosenritter
New member
Mr. Go, I have a question for you. You say that Jesus didn't use the word "grace" yet you know we are saved by grace. How do you know this? Isn't it because it is specifically and clearly written in the Bible?
Ephesians 2:5 KJV
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Seems to me that it is said. Sort of works against the point you were trying to make I think?
:rotfl:
Ben Masada
New member
Eternal death could never be a punishment. Punishment cannot be applied on unconsciousness. To be punished,
one must be conscious and there is no consciousness in the grave.
You have just disarmed one of the few eternal defense scriptures that are used to mar the nature of God, as if He is a torturer.
That people cling to few verses in place of the many that say otherwise blows my mind!
[emoji95]
Ben Masada
New member
Both and, if you further ask me, half & half. Hence we need to study daily to understand when symbols meet the letter.
way 2 go
Well-known member
no entropy
Rosenritter
New member
Ben, got to disagree here. Says here that death is a punishment:
1 Samuel 28:9-10 KJV
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? [10] And Saul sware to her by the Lord , saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
And here:
Hebrews 10:28-29 KJV
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It looks to me that whomever wrote that thought that death is a punishment. What do you think?
If one believes in a resurrection then that first death is not an eternal punishment.... Because it doesn't stick. They come back. When they die and there is NO coming back, then it's an eternal punishment.
Rosenritter
New member
1. You are not Raven.
2. Your answer makes no sense.
If you want to answer the question, it was "when you read Revelation 20 do you assume the devil is immortal? If yes, why."
If you meant that you do not assume the devil is immortal than what did you mean by "entropy?" Regardless I still want Raven's answer.