Ben Masada
New member
The only instance this union with God could be true is when we live according to the Word of God aka the Tanach.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
The only instance this union with God could be true is when we live according to the Word of God aka the Tanach.
Rosenritter
New member
Hey Ben, just a friendly reminder that I am sort of waiting for your answer about creation, flood, so forth before I can approach the prophecy and New Testament question you had for me. I need to know what (if any) of the Bible you accept as being historically literal. Without that I can't start on an answer that you won't immediately reject.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
Ben, be careful...
You almost sounded like a Goy.
For being in the Word is being One with the Word.
The Word commanded to be in Him as He is in the Father by Loving our neighbor like ourselves.
He showed this when the Adulterous was amongst God, Man judging and Sinful Judged man.
For only God can judge justly, because He alone is without sin.
What now, so we claim to be as God, capable of following the Law, or do we claim that we too can show grace whenever possible.
I believe Gods Highest law to be mercy, while we tend to focus on the letter of the law.
But a king that wields the law without mercy, becomes an agent of malicious destruction.
This is why I am Goy.
I do not believe God to be pulling punches when He called Israel to mercy over sacrifice.
Did not God exalt Himself above all other Gods when He provided another sacrifice in place of Abrahams, though Abrhaham would have given his promised son to show God his faithfulness?
Is it not possible that God ultimately gave His promised son to show His love for us?
Ben, be careful...
You almost sounded like a Goy.
For being in the Word is being One with the Word.
The Word commanded to be in Him as He is in the Father by Loving our neighbor like ourselves.
He showed this when the Adulterous was amongst God, Man judging and Sinful Judged man.
For only God can judge justly, because He alone is without sin.
What now, so we claim to be as God, capable of following the Law, or do we claim that we too can show grace whenever possible.
I believe Gods Highest law to be mercy, while we tend to focus on the letter of the law.
But a king that wields the law without mercy, becomes an agent of malicious destruction.
This is why I am Goy.
I do not believe God to be pulling punches when He called Israel to mercy over sacrifice.
Did not God exalt Himself above all other Gods when He provided another sacrifice in place of Abrahams, though Abrhaham would have given his promised son to show God his faithfulness?
Is it not possible that God ultimately gave His promised son to show His love for us?
Classical Hell is derived from an exhaustively literal approach, probably intended to keep people in line with the Church in it's first millennium. Christianity, like Islam today, was used extensively as a common glue during the expansion and warring of the era.
There is a lacking amount of literature from those times because of such, but one thing that is certain is that the Church started to employ theologians to produce an understanding of 'demonology' to answer for it's own greed and shedding of blood.
You can see multiple reasons why this era was called the 'Dark Ages', and as well, why there is so much darker imagery of Christianity throughout history.
The truth, however, is that they did not simply make up Hell- it is certainly a reality, and one which even the Reformists, who sought liberty from such control, still held to.
Although Hell is colloquially represented- and just as often literally represented- as a place of fiery torment, there has been a contrary notion for centuries now that it is likely a place commensurate to one's wickedness.
The 'Comedies of Dante' for example were inspired by this notion, although it is nevertheless a very extreme idea of it. He lived in the 13th century, during the late Middle Ages when ideologies were in their very beginning of shifting.
There is a lacking amount of literature from those times because of such, but one thing that is certain is that the Church started to employ theologians to produce an understanding of 'demonology' to answer for it's own greed and shedding of blood.
You can see multiple reasons why this era was called the 'Dark Ages', and as well, why there is so much darker imagery of Christianity throughout history.
The truth, however, is that they did not simply make up Hell- it is certainly a reality, and one which even the Reformists, who sought liberty from such control, still held to.
Although Hell is colloquially represented- and just as often literally represented- as a place of fiery torment, there has been a contrary notion for centuries now that it is likely a place commensurate to one's wickedness.
The 'Comedies of Dante' for example were inspired by this notion, although it is nevertheless a very extreme idea of it. He lived in the 13th century, during the late Middle Ages when ideologies were in their very beginning of shifting.
way 2 go
Well-known member
:think:
demons can't be saved , there is no room for faith ,
they knew God and rejected him.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
also
Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
way 2 go
Well-known member
never hid it , agree
alluded to it, sure
said it , never did
the discussion here is can you come to
a correct conclusion even tho it is not said.
Jesus never said the word "grace" unless in greeting
yet we are saved by grace.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
clear enough for those who wanted to believe
but those who want to reject God he left room
for them to reject truth.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
It does indeed look bad for them...
And yet, I still leave theological room.. After knowing He's the God that came amongst us and shocked the system of theology, I acknowledge that only He has the full plan. He does love to surprise us in ways we didn't see coming after all...
It does indeed look bad for them...
And yet, I still leave theological room.. After knowing He's the God that came amongst us and shocked the system of theology, I acknowledge that only He has the full plan. He does love to surprise us in ways we didn't see coming after all...
Last edited:
Rosenritter
New member
Hey there. Look at that passage again in context please? It does not say Jesus went on an evangelism tour.It does indeed look bad for them...
And yet, I still leave theological room.. After knowing He's the God that came amongst us and shocked the system of theology, I acknowledge that only He has the full plan. He does love to surprise us in ways we didn't see coming after all...
1 Peter 3:18-19 KJV
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Diagram the sentence if you will, but by which did he preach to the spirits in prison? What does the verse actually state?
A) by being put to death in the flesh
B) by descending into the bottomless pit
C) by his quickening by the spirit
D) by an awesome revival message that he gave while he was dead
"Preached" does not mean "attempt to convert" but rather "proclaimed." The correct answer is C, by his quickening by the spirit. B and D may be popular myth but aren't in the scripture at all!
So what did Jesus proclaim by his quickening by the spirit? His revival declared that He was indeed the Son of God and that the victory was His. Had he not been raised the host of devils would have won... And you know that is what they were hoping for.
Did he pay those spirits in prison a special personal visit later? Cannot say for certain just from that passage, could be. But the "by which he preached" includes and requires that he was first raised.
I am inclined to think that the fallen angels are entirely beyond redemption but I wouldn't presume to say that for certain. The Bible does promise the final demise of Satan but doesn't give specific names past that.
Perhaps He did go on a tour and speak to ALL of the spiritual realm. I believe His first stop can be read about in Zechariah 3
This is the question under discussion. Simply assuming that Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) in Hell is a reality is far away from actually PROVING that the Scriptures say that there is ECT in Hell.
Let's not assume ANYTHING (except that the Bible is true throughout, otherwise we have nothing to argue about!) and just look at what is actually written in the Bible.
Jesus states that it is better for a man to be dismembered or mutilated than to go to it- he was not simply speaking of death. In order to deny Hell, one has to overlook the message at large which gives so much dire warning. Otherwise, death is simply the default position which people have accepted as part of nature.
Acts 2:24
God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.
Peter 3:19
Christ coming in spirit preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time been incredulous.
Colossians 2:15
Despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently.
These are all verses speaking of Christ in his descent before the Resurrection.
Rosenritter
New member
I have no idea which Bible paraphrase you are reading from there. Does your argument still work if you use King James?
For that matter I am not sure what you are arguing.... By "deny hell" do you mean the "Dante's Inferno" version of hell?
By the way, how do you figure that hell does not mean absolute death from your reasoning that it says it would be better to enter into life minus an arm? Life is the opposite of death, and surgeons often will sacrifice limbs because that is seen as preferable to death. Your claim makes no sense.
Ben Masada
New member
I use the KJV with Christians only and the JPS for every one in general, especially Jews. The JPS is a Jewish translation of the Bible aka the Tanach.
The version I put up is a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate, as is appropriate since we are speaking on the theology of Jerome's time.
Hell is a place eternal punishment for the wicked. The 'version' is irrelevant.
My claim (reality) makes perfect sense, it's just that there is literally nothing a person can do that will have you admit there is a Hell. That is sort of what 'denial' is all about, and that is exactly what you all labor under.
That's why this conversation is pointless, and why I usually do not participate in it. The evidence is clear- in all actuality, you all should be the one's having to prove that Hell doesn't exist_ which so far, have entirely failed to do.
Ben Masada
New member
Yes, but not on an individual basis but as part of the People of Israel. The Lord Almighty said: "Israel is My son; so let My son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23)
So you claim, without a shred of proof whatsoever.
Actually, I don't overlook anything. The passage simply does not say that there is eternal torment in hell.
The gospel message is that we do not have to remain dead, we can be resurrected and have eternal life.
Are you just randomly quoting verses with the word "hell" in them? This doesn't say one word about eternal conscious torture in hell.
Peter 3:19
Torment? Does this say torment? Eternal or Temporary? Don't you even have ONE verse upon which to stand?
What the heck? Do you even remember the topic at all?
Notice that NOT ONE of the verses you are using even starts to say that there is ETC in Hell, yet you are willing to boldly proclaim that there is eternal conscious torment in Hell, without one shred of proof from the Bible. May I suggest a little humility?
Regarding Matthew 25:46,
For the thousandth time, "Eternal Punishment" does not prove "Eternal Torment".
Eternal Death is also an eternal punishment.
How would you infernalists feel if I said "The punishment for sin is Eternal Death because Matthew 25:46 says "eternal punishment"? Wouldn't you call me out? Wouldn't you be correct to do so? So why can't you see that Matthew 25:46 is NO proof that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment? Is it just a matter of your general lack of intelligence? Willful Blindness? Donkey Stubbornness? Self Righteous Arrogance? Spiritual Laziness? What IS it? Why does EVERY ECTist bring up Matthew 25:46 as if it said "The eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment"?
For the thousandth time, "Eternal Punishment" does not prove "Eternal Torment".
Eternal Death is also an eternal punishment.
How would you infernalists feel if I said "The punishment for sin is Eternal Death because Matthew 25:46 says "eternal punishment"? Wouldn't you call me out? Wouldn't you be correct to do so? So why can't you see that Matthew 25:46 is NO proof that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment? Is it just a matter of your general lack of intelligence? Willful Blindness? Donkey Stubbornness? Self Righteous Arrogance? Spiritual Laziness? What IS it? Why does EVERY ECTist bring up Matthew 25:46 as if it said "The eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment"?
good post
^
Denial
Sometimes it's just plain painful to witness
I witness your denial every time you post. It is painful.
You haven't got a shred of proof of your position and you deny what the Bible specifically says. "The wages of sin is death". Why do you deny what the Bible says and then accuse Bible Believers of being in denial. You know that none of the verses you spouted said there is eternal conscious torment in hell.