Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Nameless.In.Grace]

I mean dang... That would make the Shema reciting Jew be Kosher with Pauls teachings... Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

Who wants that.

Let's argue over the tiniest detail and create a billion Trinitarion beliefs to divide and confuse the dickens out of everyone.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

There are pagan hells older than the New Testament, including the Greek Hades and Roman underworld. It's relevant later, just not on this track.

"Hell" or "hel" comes from the older root meaning "hidden" (like the way a helmet hides your head) but likely is ultimately traced to to the Hebrew word sheol. It's the natural choice to translate both sheol and hades.

Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a specific hell application, hell on fire, or rather hell when it is set on fire and the dead are burnt up and destroyed for good rather than being kept for another resurrection.

As for the Catholic / Muslim version of hell that borrows the pagan concepts of living torture in an infinite underworld, THAT is a relatively new teaching variation, but it existed as a concept even in the time of Christ... As a pagan concept, not a scripturally based concept.

I admit it... I agree with you.

 

[Rosenritter]

Oh, sorry. If the PHARISEES believed it, it has to be true. What a crock...

Hey, I am throwing a flag. Nicer from both please. Especially Tim because I agree with his argument I don't want to give someone an excuse not to listen.

 

[Timotheos]

Hey, I am throwing a flag. Nicer from both please. Especially Tim because I agree with his argument I don't want to give someone an excuse not to listen.

I'm sorry. I should have said "Even if the Pharisees believed in eternal torture, that is no reason for Christians to believe in eternal torture."

I went back to fix my post.

 

[Timotheos]

Do you know the immortal souls is a concept of Pharisees.

Thank you Mr. Hawkins. It is good to know the origin of the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell. Do you know that the Bible says that a soul can be destroyed and that the soul who sins shall die?

That proves that the Pharisees were not correct when they invented the concept of immortal souls.

 

[way 2 go]

Why so you think Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the forbidden tree? We know when Adam died.... Nine hundred and thirty years later with sons and daughters from Eve.

it was not a threat
God commanded the man

Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

God said "in the day that you eat of it"

not

For if you eat of it you shall surely die.

You do not know what you are talking about. Matthew 23:33 does not say that there is eternal torture in hell.

but
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment

Your question is complete nonsense. How can there be torture that a person never feels? It's nonsense.

your right the second death hurts
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'

The Bible says that the penalty for sin is death, not torture that a person never feels.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me

Do you know that the Bible says that a soul can be destroyed

destroy literally or figuratively

Mat 10:26 "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Rosenritter]

it was not a threat
God commanded the man

Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

God said "in the day that you eat of it"

not

For if you eat of it you shall surely die.




but
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment


your right the second death hurts
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'




Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me




destroy literally or figuratively

Mat 10:26 "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You keep coming back without registering the hits your argument took last time, like a broken record. I will try explaining again.

When you write a promissory note to someone for goods received (you write a check) you write a date on that check. What does that date represent?

A) the day that person cashes the check
B) the day that you wrote the check

"The day thou eatest thou shalt surely die" means the sentence is fixed on the day of that transgression.

"The day thou eatest thou wilt surely die" means that the sentence is carried out that day of transgression.

Genesis says "that day ... Shalt" ... Like writing the date on a check or a contract.

You also don't seem to understand that you aren't making a case for your "spiritual death" philosophy, you are saying that God lied. Because the Bible is quite clear that Adam did not die that day, and we also know that man dies once and THEN the judgement.

Maybe you should change your avatar from the bald eagle... Perhaps the lemming might be descriptive? Why are you so tenacious in repeating disproved arguments?

 

[way 2 go]

Your comment seemed to indicate that you do not understand the meaning of the word and/or the concept. And it still seems like you are confused as to the meaning. No, that passage does not say that death "hurts" (as in causing pain.)

:think:
no confusion
second death hurts hence the encouragement to overcome.

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

 

[way 2 go]

the human spirit exist separated from the human body

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



these are all the spirits of men that were in Abraham's bosom
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[way 2 go]

You keep coming back without registering the hits your argument took last time, like a broken record. I will try explaining again.

God said "in the day that you eat of it"

if it as you say God would have said

For if you eat of it you shall surely die.

When you write a promissory note to someone for goods received (you write a check) you write a date on that check. What does that date represent?

A) the day that person cashes the check
B) the day that you wrote the check

"The day thou eatest thou shalt surely die" means the sentence is fixed on the day of that transgression.

"The day thou eatest thou wilt surely die" means that the sentence is carried out that day of transgression.

Genesis says "that day ... Shalt" ... Like writing the date on a check or a contract.

so you say God lied and I should believe you :nono:

Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.


No the fall happend the day they ate
and they spiritually died
and they were spiritually separated from God
the day they ate from the tree.

did these people go down alive into Sheol as threatened that day ?

Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Num 16:29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.
Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

You also don't seem to understand that you aren't making a case for your "spiritual death" philosophy, you are saying that God lied. Because the Bible is quite clear that Adam did not die that day, and we also know that man dies once and THEN the judgement.

your the one saying God lied in saying
that they did not die the day they ate of the tree like God said they would
just so you can hang on to your false belief
of no spiritual death

Maybe you should change your avatar from the bald eagle... Perhaps the lemming might be descriptive?

personal attack , run out of substance?

Why are you so tenacious in repeating disproved arguments?

you have not disproved me or proven your case

you have an atheist belief of hell, they don't
believe it either

Are you a Christian ?

 

[Rosenritter]

the human spirit exist separated from the human body

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



these are all the spirits of men that were in Abraham's bosom
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The parable of Lazarus has a fictitious setting so that the story makes sense, including the Greek Hades and the Abraham's Bosom analogy of the Pharisees. I could explain the meaning for you, or I could identify the rich man and name his brothers... But I think it would be more fun for me to ask you to explain why you think the story is literal.

Your reading of Ephesians 4:8 is a bit bizarre as it doesn't say anything resembling spirits or men ascending to heaven. Did you find the old testament source text for that New Testament quote?

You are behind in the thread posts as we already showed that "spirits" in prison were just that, spirits, not men. Peter also goes on to reinforce this as he describes those spirits as angels that sinned in his next letter. If you turn to the next page in your Bible you might find it.

 

[Rosenritter]

God said "in the day that you eat of it"

if it as you say God would have said

For if you eat of it you shall surely die.


so you say God lied and I should believe you :nono:

Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.


No the fall happend the day they ate
and they spiritually died
and they were spiritually separated from God
the day they ate from the tree.

did these people go down alive into Sheol as threatened that day ?

Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Num 16:29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.
Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.



your the one saying God lied in saying
that they did not die the day they ate of the tree like God said they would
just so you can hang on to your false belief
of no spiritual death





personal attack , run out of substance?


you have not disproved me or proven your case

you have an atheist belief of hell, they don't
believe it either

Are you a Christian ?

Way 2 Go, it seems you are having trouble with the English. I mean no offense if it's a second language for you but this is getting tiring when you keep repeating invalid arguments.

The Bible does not say anyone died that day, it tells us they died a different day. The grammar of the English translation assigns the today to the sure issue of the sentence, not the fulfillment.

Your solution is to not only misread the grammar to make God's statement seem false, but then to invent an entirely new philosophy that runs counter to the whole scripture to stubbornly attempt to create a faintest hint of support for your pagan derived sadistic eternal conscious torment doctrine. Your reading makes God a liar because it doesn't tell us anyone died that day in any fashion.

In Numbers 16, yes, the earth swallowed those people alive. Do you know what happens when people are sucked down into the earth and it closes on them? They don't stay alive. They die soon thereafter. People who are buried alive DIE. Cannot see how this new branch of yours is relevant...

Now before you question my spiritual allegiance, I think we are still waiting for your reply on how you differentiate yourself from Hitler, seeing that given power and opportunity you have implied that you would do far worse to many more people than he did.

That question is entirely relevant considering you said that you (or Christians at least) would be judging people's eternal fate on judgement day and that you would torture Hitler for infinity.

Matthew 7:2 KJV
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[freelight]

Points to consider

Points to consider

I am applying the same Jewish concept found in Josephus' works. That's the Jewish concept 2000 years ago.

Why do you have to apply another new concept for hell itself.

Hi Hawkins,....some thoughts to add if you don't mind -

Sure, Josephus was sharing ideas/beliefs/concepts of 'hell' (but this depends on the what word is being used here and its associated meanings, also 'context')...but much of this 'hellfire' concept evolved and was cross-pollinated from other influencing cultures and the need philosophically to help explain things that the OT is vague or lacking about. It takes an 'evolution' of conceptual overlays to evolve 'sheol', to 'gehenna' then a concept of ECT in such a place as some kind of exacting of God's justice or penalty of sin, which is outrageous in scope, heinous in assumption. This also violates some standards of the universal law of karma, which we explore here (Way 2 Go calls me out to debate this 'law' and we go to it )

Do you know the immortal souls is a concept of Pharisees.

This evolved or was adopted in some fashion to confirm ideas on 'resurrection' or 'rebirth'....but the concept of the 'immortal soul' is NOT taught expressly in the OT. - the philosophical concepts were almost inevitable and philosophically 'provisional' as they came to emerge in the 'inter-testamental' period (Apocryphal era) so that some idea of the human soul being 'eternal' and thus capable of some kind of 'immortality' was integral to their accepted theology. Note that the Essenes were even more liberal in some aspects holding to 'resurrection' and 'rebirth' (reincarnation) in one form or another. However,...one can still accept 'resurrection' or 'rebirth' and reject ECT, because the universal laws of karma and justice do not permit ECT, or if one holds to 'conditional immortality' and 'soul-death', it is that some souls can so fully embrace iniquity to the point that the full effect or fruit of that iniquity consequences a final/eternal DEATH. These souls are wholly disintegrated. These views have their own logic and rationale, and totally reject the morbid concept of ECT.

ECT challenged ealier here.

By your own concept, you will have to explain away a lot of verses such as this;

Matthew 25:46 (NIV)
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

We've done so earlier here and elsewhere. Research the word 'aionios'. Oh, and even while one assumes an ultimate condition of 'life'(immortality) or 'death'(cessation of conscious existence, disintegration)....you still have to deal with the law of karma(action) and how that may factors into things,....all choices/actions have consequences.

And you have to explain away history as well.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
The Works of Flavius Josephus.

History is full of mythology, speculation, creative-doctoring, mere story-telling; - this was just a record of various beliefs Josephus was detailing, that is all. All assumptions, doctrines or dogmas must be examined on their own merit, integrity, logic, rationale, reasoning, etc, and be rejected or "researched" if they are not in accord with these standards.

My question is to expose your anti-Christ doctrine to be spread. As it is you who advocate that the torment is unconscious which provides the option one can reject God's salvation by accepting a torment he can never feel.

Not quite, since a soul must reap what it sows so that it will suffer to the degree of its own choices and actions, whereby a final and ultimate DEATH would be the finality of that soul's reaping of its actions. Therefore, it is quite logical that a soul will reap the full spectrum of what is sown, with a finality of death being the ultimate END for the wholly iniquitous.

 

[way 2 go]

Way 2 Go, it seems you are having trouble with the English. I mean no offense if it's a second language for you but this is getting tiring when you keep repeating invalid arguments.

The Bible does not say anyone died that day, it tells us they died a different day. The grammar of the English translation assigns the today to the sure issue of the sentence, not the fulfillment.

the command was do not eat as the result would be they
would die the very same day
You suggest God lied because you read the bible like an atheist.

Your solution is to not only misread the grammar to make God's statement seem false,

your the one saying God lied that they did not die that day because it does not say it.

but then to invent an entirely new philosophy that runs counter to the whole scripture to stubbornly

my theology is from the bible, you read the bible like an atheist
denying the human spirit lives on after Physical death.Rev 6:9
denying spiritual separation from God is death.

Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
God was talking people who were alive but spiritually dead , spiritually separated from God

Your reading makes God a liar because it doesn't tell us anyone died that day in any fashion.

Jesus never said "I am God" , he is


they died that day they were spiritually separated from God.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"

God Knew where they were.

In Numbers 16, yes, the earth swallowed those people alive. Do you know what happens when people are sucked down into the earth and it closes on them? They don't stay alive. They die soon thereafter. People who are buried alive DIE. Cannot see how this new branch of yours is relevant...

it is an example of Gods word meaning what it says.

did it say they died? no.

but by your logic because
it did not say they died
they must not have died.

Jesus never said "I am God" , he is

They died.

Now before you question my spiritual allegiance, I think we are still waiting for your reply on how you differentiate yourself from Hitler, seeing that given power and opportunity you have implied that you would do far worse to many more people than he did.

not interested in the truth and not a Christian .

now we getting somewhere.

Matthew 7:2 KJV
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

you Know that means don't judge like a hypocrite , right ?
there is a book in the bible called judges

1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

 

[way 2 go]

The parable of Lazarus has a fictitious setting so that the story makes sense, including the Greek Hades and the Abraham's Bosom analogy of the Pharisees. I could explain the meaning for you, or I could identify the rich man and name his brothers... But I think it would be more fun for me to ask you to explain why you think the story is literal.

that the beggar is named but not the rich man
every body Knows the names of rich people
but nobody knows the names of beggars except God


Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

just call God a liar and dismiss Lazarus altogether .

Your reading of Ephesians 4:8 is a bit bizarre as it doesn't say anything resembling spirits or men ascending to heaven. Did you find the old testament source text for that New Testament quote?

It is cool how Paul quotes the old testament and septuagint to illustrate new testament truth.

You are behind in the thread posts as we already showed that "spirits" in prison were just that, spirits, not men.

I saw more of your lies

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
salvation is not offered to demons

Peter also goes on to reinforce this as he describes those spirits as angels that sinned in his next letter. If you turn to the next page in your Bible you might find it.

 

[Rosenritter]

the command was do not eat as the result would be they
would die the very same day
You suggest God lied because you read the bible like an atheist.

your the one saying God lied that they did not die that day because it does not say it.


my theology is from the bible, you read the bible like an atheist
denying the human spirit lives on after Physical death.Rev 6:9
denying spiritual separation from God is death.

Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
God was talking people who were alive but spiritually dead , spiritually separated from God.

Jesus never said "I am God" , he is

they died that day they were spiritually separated from God.

did it say they died? no.

but by your logic because
it did not say they died
they must not have died.

Jesus never said "I am God" , he is

not interested in the truth and not a Christian .

now we getting somewhere.

To set the record straight Way2Go, I have not said God lied, I have said that you must be incapable of understanding English grammar. You further prove my point when responding to my examples. Saul and Solomon both spoke in the same fashion, commanding "thou shalt" on the same day for events that could not possibly come to pass in that day. Your answer that Solomon expected Shimei to "spontaneously combust" when he left his jurisdiction is positively absurd. How do you expect to be taken seriously by others?

A side note, your statement is wrong. Jesus did say he was God. Four times in Revelation he says he is the first and the last, beginning and end. That is the unique title of God almighty from Isaiah. To the Pharisees he identifies himself as "I AM" (Exodus 3:6, John 8:58) and he also named himself as the Son of God who will stand in judgment over the Pharisees that set themselves as gods, at the end of the world (Psalm 82, John 10:34). It's not that Jesus did not say he was God, its just that you don't know your Bible.

Which begs the question, if I am an atheist as you say, how is it that I prove Christ's divinity by his own words from scripture, and likewise demonstrate holiness and love and justice of his character? By what means do you do this?

Mark 3:22-23 KJV
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. [23] And he called them unto him , and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Matthew 12:26-28 KJV
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

May I ask you a question about your reading of Mark 12:27? Jesus was speaking to the Saducces and said that the express purpose of his statement was to prove the Resurrection of the Dead. How therefore does "he is the God of the living" prove that Abraham was currently alive? For if Abraham lives now then there is no need of resurrection for God to be "God of the living."

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, [32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Tell me then Mr. Way, how does Jesus's answer prove that the dead do rise if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive in any fashion?

 

[Rosenritter]

that the beggar is named but not the rich man
every body Knows the names of rich people
but nobody knows the names of beggars except God


Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

just call God a liar and dismiss Lazarus altogether .



It is cool how Paul quotes the old testament and septuagint to illustrate new testament truth.



I saw more of your lies

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
salvation is not offered to demons

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees before a multitude, and we are told that Jesus did not speak before the multitude without parable. How do you figure that this story is not a parable?

By the way, if it is not a parable then you now have some additional problems, including that salvation is given as a reward for being poor, and torments as the turnabout simply for being rich. Forgiveness or faith don't enter into that equation.

Luke 16:25 KJV
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I am guessing that you are not a beggar and have received a few good things in your lifetime. You are "going to hell" then I suppose. Too bad for you. Say hello to Hitler for us, maybe you will be taking anger management classes together.

After you've got your asbestos underwear packed try this question. Can you really not think of a famous Jew that the Pharisees would recognize and identify with who had FIVE brothers, and could call Abraham "father?" One whom might be associated with purple and fine linen? If you read the scripture you might find the answer, and maybe.... Just MAYBE... You might understand the parable.

And then you could put the asbestos clothes back in your dresser drawer because you wouldn't be confused that you were being sent to a Gentile Hades.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

that the beggar is named but not the rich man
every body Knows the names of rich people
but nobody knows the names of beggars except God


Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

just call God a liar and dismiss Lazarus altogether .



It is cool how Paul quotes the old testament and septuagint to illustrate new testament truth.



I saw more of your lies

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
salvation is not offered to demons

I totally agree with your pointing out that this verse couldn't be salvation to demons. This verse couldn't have pointed to judging demons.

That would be more visible in the words... Do you not know that you will judge Angels.

And in this light.... Perhaps God will see if mercy can be extended to some of the fallen ones by His Kingdom of mercy.

But it is very clear that there is a free will choice that is made by Angels and people to reject that mercy should be the standard of judgment. There are unmerciful people that will reject the mercy of God. To His face!

In light of self justification and pride.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

I totally agree with your pointing out that this verse couldn't be salvation to demons. This verse couldn't have pointed to judging demons.

That would be more visible in the words... Do you not know that you will judge Angels.

And in this light.... Perhaps God will see if mercy can be extended to some of the fallen ones by His Kingdom of mercy.

But it is very clear that there is a free will choice that is made by Angels and people to reject that mercy should be the standard of judgment. There are unmerciful people that will reject the mercy of God. To His face!

In light of self justification and pride.

I had forgotten that Jude specifies the demons to be judged after Christ had departed in physical form. Good looking out.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

To set the record straight Way2Go, I have not said God lied, I have said that you must be incapable of understanding English grammar. You further prove my point when responding to my examples. Saul and Solomon both spoke in the same fashion, commanding "thou shalt" on the same day for events that could not possibly come to pass in that day. Your answer that Solomon expected Shimei to "spontaneously combust" when he left his jurisdiction is positively absurd. How do you expect to be taken seriously by others?

A side note, your statement is wrong. Jesus did say he was God. Four times in Revelation he says he is the first and the last, beginning and end. That is the unique title of God almighty from Isaiah. To the Pharisees he identifies himself as "I AM" (Exodus 3:6, John 8:58) and he also named himself as the Son of God who will stand in judgment over the Pharisees that set themselves as gods, at the end of the world (Psalm 82, John 10:34). It's not that Jesus did not say he was God, its just that you don't know your Bible.

Which begs the question, if I am an atheist as you say, how is it that I prove Christ's divinity by his own words from scripture, and likewise demonstrate holiness and love and justice of his character? By what means do you do this?

Mark 3:22-23 KJV
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. [23] And he called them unto him , and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Matthew 12:26-28 KJV
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

May I ask you a question about your reading of Mark 12:27? Jesus was speaking to the Saducces and said that the express purpose of his statement was to prove the Resurrection of the Dead. How therefore does "he is the God of the living" prove that Abraham was currently alive? For if Abraham lives now then there is no need of resurrection for God to be "God of the living."

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, [32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Tell me then Mr. Way, how does Jesus's answer prove that the dead do rise if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive in any fashion?

I agree that Jesus never hid that He was God, and even said it.

This is even more obvious when reading each gospel straight through and then paralleling those 4 against one another.

I also point out that the ambiguity of it comes from Jesus teaching us to Glory God and not self. This was His living example unto us.

To expound. Jesus made it clear He was God, while showing that we should only Glory God, as Gods Glory is born of humility and not pride.

This truly makes our servant King the King above all Kings.