I would even say that God is the very source of our soul. Paul divided this into soul (person) Numa (Spirit)
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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I would even say that God is the very source of our soul. Paul divided this into soul (person) Numa (Spirit)
You are wrong. Hell is a firm Jewish concept back in Jesus time.
Your revelation is thus not from Christ as you simply got the simplest wrong.
You have no scripture to back up your claim. According to John 3:16 those who believe in Christ will have eternal life and those who do not will perish. You fell for the oldest lie in the Bible, "Surely you will not die".
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It's history can be found in Josephus' works.
So have you answered the question for you?
Is it correct that one can reject Jesus Christ if he choose to accept a torment he never feels?
Literally, it is said in the Scripture by Jesus Himself. To say that hell is not supported by Scripture remains your own assertion.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV)
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Rosenritter
New member
I wasn't trying to force anyone's hand with that, just thought it relevant.
As for the sign of Jonah, did you notice that it predicts the fall of Jerusalem? Nineveh was spared, Jerusalem was not. A year for a day, for each day of Jonah's walk.
But as for spirits in prison, humans aren't spirits. Spirits are spirits. We are told of spirits which were once disobedient, they were rebellious in the days of Noah, they are kept chained until judgment. Perhaps confusion might arise because people today often think of a church when they hear the word Preach... But the word is closer to "proclaimed."
Also it is his resurrection from death that proclaimed victory, not his death or any action taken while dead...
1 Peter 3:19-20 KJV
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
2 Peter 2:4-5 KJV
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; [5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person , a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
As for context see Genesis 6
Genesis 6:2-4 KJV
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. [3] And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Other references to Sons of God in the Old Testament also seem to refer to spirits (not men)
Job 2:1 KJV
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord , and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
Job 38:4-7 KJV
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? [6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; [7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Just saying that spirits are spirits and men are men. There may be a spirit in man that he requires to live, but we aren't told that it functions by itself. Angels are created spirits and that seems to fit Peter's context without conflict, even in reference to Noah.
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The bible does not say that the wages of sin is torment that a person cannot feel. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Your question is nonsense. If a person rejects Jesus Christ, he will perish just as the Bible says.
Ben Masada
New member
I understand that God is the Source of ourselves as soul and myself is one and the same. (Genesis 2:7)
The Scripture however says that,
Matthew 23:33 (NIV)
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
So you can't simply rule out the possibility that the torment is conscious.
Have you answered the question for you yet?
Is is correct that one can legitimately reject Jesus if he accepts a torment he never feels?
Moreover, one shouldn't come to the same conclusion as you did lightly as your advocate here means that God's church, early church fathers together with Christians in majority in the past 2000 years had a wrong concept of what salvation is.
Lol..... No worry at forcing my hand. Your words are good, and encouraged me to type, instead of procrastinate.
I see your point in that too. This is very relevant as well. I can't deny what you speak of when you say Angels.
That brings my mind to the book of Jude.
Well shoot... Study time is calling in the near future again.
Excellent points Rosenritter!
You do not know what you are talking about. Matthew 23:33 does not say that there is eternal torture in hell. Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 "fear the one who is able to DESTROY both body and soul in hell".
Didn't you know this?
Your question is complete nonsense. How can there be torture that a person never feels? It's nonsense. The Bible says that the penalty for sin is death, not torture that a person never feels. Where do you come up with this garbage? Are you a Mormon?
I would agree with that too. But to get there I would blabber about how we are reconciled unto being one with God, yet not God at all.
Something like,
Paraphrasing: Be ye in me, as I am in the Father
I am applying the same Jewish concept found in Josephus' works. That's the Jewish concept 2000 years ago.
Why do you have to apply another new concept for hell itself.
Do you know the immortal souls is a concept of Pharisees.
By your own concept, you will have to explain away a lot of verses such as this;
Matthew 25:46 (NIV)
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
And you have to explain away history as well.
2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
The Works of Flavius Josephus.
The question remains how likely they are all wrong for you to be correct?
My question is to expose your anti-Christ doctrine to be spread. As it is you who advocate that the torment is unconscious which provides the option one can reject God's salvation by accepting a torment he can never feel.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
I so didn't mean to quote myself. Bringing palm to my forehead.
Also, I see you have taken the Nephilim to be Angels.
Brave theological stance.
Respect
I so didn't mean to quote myself. Bringing palm to my forehead.
Also, I see you have taken the Nephilim to be Angels.
Brave theological stance.
Respect
Ben Masada
New member
The statement "spiritual form" is a paradox. Spirit is simply an emanation and, emanations don't have form. They are rather akin to concepts. If you read John 4:24, Jesus spoke of God as being a Spirit. If spirit had form, God would be corporeal and God is not.
Ben Masada
New member
This is a spiritual condition. There is nothing literal about it.
Well, that would be fair if so much wasn't corrupted in theology.
To be fair.
From Pauls stance, it is saying He meant it when He said: Father, into Your hands I commend my Spirit.
This would be where God enters the Heavenly realm in the form of Jesus (Spiritual Body) and does the work spoken of in a more understandable fashion than an unseeable Spiritual force.
It's kind of like, God for gentile dummies.
I'm just trying to be funny. Please no one beat me.
Ahhhhh... I agree with the way you see it, and even the way I see it in my corrupted Goy fashion.
Does that make me duplicitous?
Rosenritter
New member
There are pagan hells older than the New Testament, including the Greek Hades and Roman underworld. It's relevant later, just not on this track.
"Hell" or "hel" comes from the older root meaning "hidden" (like the way a helmet hides your head) but likely is ultimately traced to to the Hebrew word sheol. It's the natural choice to translate both sheol and hades.
Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a specific hell application, hell on fire, or rather hell when it is set on fire and the dead are burnt up and destroyed for good rather than being kept for another resurrection.
As for the Catholic / Muslim version of hell that borrows the pagan concepts of living torture in an infinite underworld, THAT is a relatively new teaching variation, but it existed as a concept even in the time of Christ... As a pagan concept, not a scripturally based concept.
Oh, sorry. If the PHARISEES believed it, it has to be true. That is not a logical statement. That's a better reason to NOT believe in eternal torture, since they had Jesus KILLED. You haven't even proven that the Pharisees believed in eternal torture. Where do you come up with this untrue stuff? Why don't you just accept what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more? I even told you directly that Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that the soul and body would be destroyed in hell. You don't even believe Jesus Christ. You believe what you think the Pharisee MIGHT HAVE believed over what Jesus Christ said. Don't put yourself in with the Pharisees. Jesus called them a brood of vipers that will be destroyed in Gehenna.
No, I believe that only the righteous will go to eternal life. You have to explain THAT away. I also believe that the wicked will go to eternal punishment. They will be destroyed and will remain destroyed forever. If "Forever" isn't eternal, then nothing is.
You're right. Nobody ever got anything wrong in the history of the world. The truth is that people throughout history actually have gotten things wrong that were later corrected by people who were willing to investigate. The earth is not flat, even though this was believed at one time.
You have to explain away the Bible which specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed.
Are you really attempting to determine truth by popular vote? That is not the way that intelligent people determine truth.
Since I agree with God's Word, it doesn't matter how many people disagree. AND if you REALLY want to determine truth by a head count (which would be illogical) MORE people do NOT believe in Hell than there are people who DO believe in Hell. SO you should change your vote. The question remains, How likely are they all wrong for you to be correct?
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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
To be honest, this is where I genuinely feel that the teaching of the Trinity can be a distraction.
It would make more since if it was spoken that:
The Timeless Spirit entered into Physical form bound by time and born of humanity, as Father and Son one, that the work of God could be done.
Breath of Life teaching Life breathed,
That the lost could be saved and the blind could see.
BUT: that would get someone theologically stoned, so...
Thank goodness no one ever said that.
To be honest, this is where I genuinely feel that the teaching of the Trinity can be a distraction.
It would make more since if it was spoken that:
The Timeless Spirit entered into Physical form bound by time and born of humanity, as Father and Son one, that the work of God could be done.
Breath of Life teaching Life breathed,
That the lost could be saved and the blind could see.
BUT: that would get someone theologically stoned, so...
Thank goodness no one ever said that.