Good, I'm glad to hear that you don't REALLY think that eternal destruction is just as good as eternal life in Christ. I didn't really want you to destroy yourself, and no sane person would destroy themself or think that being destroyed is just as good as not being destroyed. So your argument that Stalin, Hitler and every other evil person is happy to be destroyed is false.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Good, I'm glad to hear that you don't REALLY think that eternal destruction is just as good as eternal life in Christ. I didn't really want you to destroy yourself, and no sane person would destroy themself or think that being destroyed is just as good as not being destroyed. So your argument that Stalin, Hitler and every other evil person is happy to be destroyed is false.
Yes. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Megele will stand before God and God will pass out the correct sentence for them. God's Word says that the wages of sin is death. The correct sentence for them is death. They will perish on Judgment Day just as the Bible says and they will remain dead forever. How they feel about being destroyed doesn't matter, because they have no say in it.
The wages of their sin is death. The perpetrators will be destroyed. If you don't think that is harsh enough, I suggest that you take that up with God. God's Word says "The wages of sin is death". You are not God. You don't get to decide on their punishment. Since God says their penalty is destruction, who are you to question Him?
You already KNOW that the people who do these things deserve death, but for some reason you ignore this. The Bible SAYS that YOU already KNOW this! "Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die..."
Romans 1:32
I've seen the back and forth and the arguments from scripture on both sides of the issue. Timotheos is correct, all others are wrong.
Thanks Patrick. I'm going to make that into a plaque for my wall so that my wife can see it everyday!
Rosenritter
New member
If I answer your question will you answer mine?
Answer: there is no such thing as non-punishment of evil. Evil will be judged and eradicated.
Answer plus: I do derive pleasure from the restoration and healing promised in Revelation, where it says there shall be no more pain nor suffering any more. Anyone damaged by evil (everyone who ever lived) can be healed.
Revelation 21:4 KJV
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Not sure if you believe any of that passage or not but that is what it says.
- Former things passed away (not preserved in agony.)
- No more pain (nor endless pain.)
- No more crying (no remaining trauma.)
If damage is healed and tears wiped away and the evil exists no more why would you continue to cry out for blood and further torment? If so there's something wrong with you that needs fixing....
Seriously, reflect on that. As a reminder the question for you was "Do you derive pleasure from pain and suffering of others?"
If so can't help but wonder how you differentiate your character from that of Hitler. Maybe Hitler was "once saved always saved" or one of the "predestined elect" too? You want to inflict torture on people, he likes to inflict torture on people. Except you want to inflict endless torture on billions more without end. You might make Adolf look like a saint in comparison!
I hope you can be fixed.
lifeisgood,
re: "For people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengele, etc., torturing them for eternity, FOR ME, would not be enough as the correct sentence for their crimes..."
What if sometime during the last month of their lives they sincerely repented and met the requirements for salvation? Would that be ok with you?
re: "For people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengele, etc., torturing them for eternity, FOR ME, would not be enough as the correct sentence for their crimes..."
What if sometime during the last month of their lives they sincerely repented and met the requirements for salvation? Would that be ok with you?
Ben Masada
New member
way 2 go
Well-known member
you quoted this verse
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'
all I pointed out was the second death hurt
Rosenritter
New member
Your comment seemed to indicate that you do not understand the meaning of the word and/or the concept. And it still seems like you are confused as to the meaning. No, that passage does not say that death "hurts" (as in causing pain.)
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God as a Loving Heavenly Father.........
God as a Loving Heavenly Father.........
Well,...the essence and character of 'God' is love, speaking of qualitative nature, constitution. I think we project a lot of our own human character traits on 'God', blowing these up to 'superhuman' proportions,....just more 'anthropomorphizing' Deity,..but that's a gesture of our own characterizing of 'God',...since we view him thru our own 'imaging-process', and therefore perhaps make 'God' in our own 'image'. Its a kind of humanizing God. Especially using the word 'jealous' to depict God, and other negative descriptions such as his wrath, anger, vengence, etc. So you see, how much of religious writing is but the mythologizing of God, morphing the deity in our imagination, as suits our own conceptions of 'him'...or 'her' depending on your religious tradition
Of course 'God' in our monotheistic theologies is a divine Personality that is wholly Just, Loving, merciful, wise, fair, benevolent, gracious, etc....since Deity is the very source-essence from which these qualities, attributes and virtues derive, there being no other source. - but note,....this God would never do anything horrific, unjust, unloving, unwise, unmerciful, illogical, irrational, insane, etc.....since his will does NOT change, neither does his essential being or character. Therefore He cannot act in a way contrary to his will, disposition or constitution, since He is wholly fair, wise, merciful and just in ALL his judgments and ministrations. The divine Love and Wisdom always prevails in all his adjudications.
This is why He cannot be the author or perpetrator of ECT. Love does not commit any sentient being to an eternity of endless suffering, torment, misery and pain for its own sake. Love has no hand in such deviltry!
God as a Loving Heavenly Father.........
Well,...the essence and character of 'God' is love, speaking of qualitative nature, constitution. I think we project a lot of our own human character traits on 'God', blowing these up to 'superhuman' proportions,....just more 'anthropomorphizing' Deity,..but that's a gesture of our own characterizing of 'God',...since we view him thru our own 'imaging-process', and therefore perhaps make 'God' in our own 'image'. Its a kind of humanizing God. Especially using the word 'jealous' to depict God, and other negative descriptions such as his wrath, anger, vengence, etc. So you see, how much of religious writing is but the mythologizing of God, morphing the deity in our imagination, as suits our own conceptions of 'him'...or 'her' depending on your religious tradition
Of course 'God' in our monotheistic theologies is a divine Personality that is wholly Just, Loving, merciful, wise, fair, benevolent, gracious, etc....since Deity is the very source-essence from which these qualities, attributes and virtues derive, there being no other source. - but note,....this God would never do anything horrific, unjust, unloving, unwise, unmerciful, illogical, irrational, insane, etc.....since his will does NOT change, neither does his essential being or character. Therefore He cannot act in a way contrary to his will, disposition or constitution, since He is wholly fair, wise, merciful and just in ALL his judgments and ministrations. The divine Love and Wisdom always prevails in all his adjudications.
This is why He cannot be the author or perpetrator of ECT. Love does not commit any sentient being to an eternity of endless suffering, torment, misery and pain for its own sake. Love has no hand in such deviltry!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Stretching the topic........
Stretching the topic........
- Ah,....I'm not aware of Gary teaching such, but am aware of the 'conditional immortality' being the best supported view as far as being 'biblical' (an arbritary term IMO), meaning that more passages indicate 'conditional immortality'...and likewise the disintegration of the wicked, their complete destruction/termination/non-existence,...but as I shared...this for some has some metaphysical difficulties, especially for those who suppose the human soul or spirit is eternal by nature. In any case, no matter how long a human soul or spirit may endure after physical death,....immortality (the divine nature itself imparted) is something gifted to a soul by God, so it not inherent, but from here details may collide or differ from other points about this human/divine nexus or marriage amid the different schools of thought.
Since I as an 'eclectic theosophist' (you can have fun with that) draw from many schools and am not limiting my 'theology' to the Bible ALONE, my plate is a bit more decorated than the usual black n white menu meal plan. I guess I'm more a universalist, mystic, gnostic, perennialist at heart, but ever researching as a 'spiritual scientist' along the way,....since that's all one can do as a student of truth. - remain open to consider, test, investigate, compare, review, learn, engage, etc. Life is a mystery, beyond what we can see in Nature and her universal cosmic laws....for the visible things and movements mirror the invisible, and so the mirror of the inner and outer correlaries remain, and life goes on,....birth, death, rebirth. Energy continues its tranformations thru-out space.
While a particular personality may seem to be disintegrated and never 'reborn' or 'reincarnated', the original energy from which forms are born still exists, and there is still a 'memory' of that personality or soul as I noted earlier, so that all souls are still remembered or live on in the memory of 'God', like our concept of the 'akashic records' which in the etheric field holds an imprint of all thoughts, feelings, actions of every sentient being that has ever lived. I'm just stretching the topic open a bit further, since we're dealing with souls and what quality of life or death they may ultimately undergo.
Stretching the topic........
- Ah,....I'm not aware of Gary teaching such, but am aware of the 'conditional immortality' being the best supported view as far as being 'biblical' (an arbritary term IMO), meaning that more passages indicate 'conditional immortality'...and likewise the disintegration of the wicked, their complete destruction/termination/non-existence,...but as I shared...this for some has some metaphysical difficulties, especially for those who suppose the human soul or spirit is eternal by nature. In any case, no matter how long a human soul or spirit may endure after physical death,....immortality (the divine nature itself imparted) is something gifted to a soul by God, so it not inherent, but from here details may collide or differ from other points about this human/divine nexus or marriage amid the different schools of thought.Since I as an 'eclectic theosophist' (you can have fun with that) draw from many schools and am not limiting my 'theology' to the Bible ALONE, my plate is a bit more decorated than the usual black n white menu meal plan. I guess I'm more a universalist, mystic, gnostic, perennialist at heart, but ever researching as a 'spiritual scientist' along the way,....since that's all one can do as a student of truth. - remain open to consider, test, investigate, compare, review, learn, engage, etc. Life is a mystery, beyond what we can see in Nature and her universal cosmic laws....for the visible things and movements mirror the invisible, and so the mirror of the inner and outer correlaries remain, and life goes on,....birth, death, rebirth. Energy continues its tranformations thru-out space.
While a particular personality may seem to be disintegrated and never 'reborn' or 'reincarnated', the original energy from which forms are born still exists, and there is still a 'memory' of that personality or soul as I noted earlier, so that all souls are still remembered or live on in the memory of 'God', like our concept of the 'akashic records' which in the etheric field holds an imprint of all thoughts, feelings, actions of every sentient being that has ever lived. I'm just stretching the topic open a bit further, since we're dealing with souls and what quality of life or death they may ultimately undergo.
lifeisgood
New member
If a person can do anything they desire harming others and the Lord simply destroys them, where is God's justice in that?
God is just though and His justice is perfect. How He decides to sentence monsters such as Hitler, Stalin, Mengele, etc., it is perfect with me.
lifeisgood
New member
But I also remember that Adam and Eve died the moment they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree. So, how God will pass sentence on these monsters, and ones such as them, it will be the correct sentence for it will be perfect and ALL including the ones being passed sentence on will not be able to say it was not the correct sentence and they will be happy with the sentence was the one that it was for God will make them comprehend fully the why.
Adam and Eve did not die the moment they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree. According to the Genesis 5:5, Adam died when he was 930 years old, long after he ate the fruit.
Yes, God will pass the correct sentence on Stalin and his friends on the day of judgment and destruction of the wicked. The correct sentence is destruction of the ungodly. 2 Peter 3:7 "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."
Why don't you give up your idea that the wicked will be tortured alive forever in hell and just accept what the Bible says?
Where is God's Justice?!!! They will be completely DESTROYED!!! They will not get away with anything. Justice will be served, they will be destroyed. Do you think for a second that they will get eternal life as a reward for evil?
Good. God's Word says that the wicked will be destroyed. I think you should accept that, instead of arguing that the wicked should be tortured alive forever.
lifeisgood
New member
Like I said, whatever sentence God passes on it will be perfect for He is perfect.
lifeisgood
New member
As I said, God is just and the sentence He passes will be perfect.
Thanks, I'm glad that we could come to an agreement. For a while it was like pulling teeth.
lifeisgood
New member
I don't know why. I made perfect sense to me. LOL.