Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Hi Rosenritter,

As you may know by my commentary so far,...my reference to 'suffering' was towards ECT in hellfire,...a pernicious, insidious doctrine,...where souls are tormented TO NO END or purpose, except to keep these souls FOREVER in a state of unhappiness, deprivation, pain, agony, etc. It is 'suffering' for the sake of 'suffering',....which is illogical, while 'suffering' inspired or endured by love, hope and faith....engenders life, learning, hope, eternal survival, attraction towards 'God', salvation, restoration, etc. This is why I've also included the logics and rationale of Universal Salvation as well in my discourses, as well as 'conditional immortality', both views being more tenable than ECT. Love does not inflict punishment to no end. - that is antithesis of love.

Way 2 Go has been given plenty of resource materials, language lessons and so on on the issue of 'aionios', and the basic irrationality of ECT on many levels, but just sputters back the same responses enforcing his own belief-system and conclusions on the matter, without bothering to research the evidence or logics provided, or so it seems. Its lock n key apologetics. Its just one continual 'repeat' of souls being 'eternally punished' in hellfire (a continual infliction with no relief, resolve or reform), over and over and over and over TO NO END. Its complete insanity.

While Tim has set out here to find out what is 'biblical' on the matter, (a term I find somewhat arbritrary),....there does seem to be more support for 'conditional immortality' which is against ECT,....but there are passages that can be used to support Universalism as well, which also rejects ECT looking at the issue from different angles, so there appears to be no 'absolute' single viewpoint that is perfect, apart from what universal laws, values, meanings and principles hold true, and how we dissect or interpret particular passages. Hence I take a more rational, philosophical and even scientific approach to the subject. All else beyond what can be rationally ascertained or assumed is speculation.

Hello Freelight. If you would grant me the time, space, and pointed questions, I would demonstrate that the Bible is consistent with eternal destruction as opposed to universal reconciliation. I can grant that there may be more redeemed than some might expect but even Universalist Authors (like Gary Amirault) admit that the Bible teaches destruction (not salvation) of the wicked. Give me more space and opportunity and I would show that the Bible is consistent in its other aspects and worthy of our trust and faith.

 

[Ben Masada]

May I take this challenge please?

By all means, Rosen; be my guest! I'll be happy that you do.

Question: may I use any of the old testament? Could we start with Isaiah 9:6? Unto us a child is born?

You have no option Rosen but to use quotes from the OT, and thanks for starting with an easy one. Isaiah 9:6 was a prophecy about the welcome offered by the Gentiles from Galilee settled there by the Assyrians when they had conquered Israel the Ten Tribe. Their welcome was for the Jews returning from exile in Babylon. It was when Judah, the child was being born again. If you are being taken by the terms used by the Gentiles of the Galilee, think of them as pagans who were referring to the Jews as God Himself, probably a token to leave together rather then being forced out to make room for the real owners who were arriving.

The problem I foresee is if you dispute the New Testament I am not sure what you will accept as fact and not. What about Jesus crucifixion? Psalm 22?

Psalm 22 is not about Jesus' crucifixion for two reasons: First, Jesus was not the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Josephus speaks of thousands only in the First Century. (Wars of the Jews) And second, I see the Holocaust in Psalm 22 much more characteristically than the crucifixion of Jesus. Now, if you read Psalm 44:11-26 without Christian preconceived notions you will be more easily convinced of the Holocaust rather than Jesus' crucifixion.

Or this? Zechariah 11:12-13 KJV And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord .

That money in the transaction between Judas and the High Priest never happened. It is a forgery copied by the authors of the gospels as an analogy with the selling of Joseph by his brothers to the Egyptians.

If you talk to me a bit I can figure out what you accept or dispute and work from there. But you don't need new testament for promised eternal life.

You are right, I don't. I have the Torah in Genesis 3:22,23. The reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Divine reason why eternal life could not be shared with man. And throughout the Tanach there is no promise of eternal life for man.

Daniel 12:2-3 KJV And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

For the reply to Dan. 12:2,3, you must read Isaiah 53:8,9. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the land of the living and graves assigned to them among the nations. Then, at the end of the exile, the Lord opens up their graves and takes them back to the Land of Israel. That's metaphorical bodily resurrection. (Ezekiel 37:12) So, at the end of the exile, those who agree to return to Israel analogically shine as the brightness of the firmament. Those who prefer to remain in exile are reserved for reproach and everlasting abhorrence.

 

[way 2 go]

Hmm... Seems that your decision that the prophecy "ends" is rather arbitrary. Actually, not arbitrary, but purposely chosen to try to make what you wanted. Except there is nothing in that text to suggest a change of subject.

actually all of verse 17 is about the king

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


I will cast thee to the ground, was about Tyre

as satan was already cast down


next you admit the casting down but purposely get it wrong
to try & prove your point.

Read Revelation. The devil will be cast down another time. You quoted the verse yourself in your post. What part of "cast into the lake of fire" did you miss?

Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The lake of fire is at ground level.

:nono:

satan cast down from heaven

Luk 10:18 And He said to them, I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning.

What is funny about this is that it seems you have abandoned your Pure Eternal Conscious Torment position. By assigning the King of Tyrus the devil's fate of being laid before kings and reduced to ashes, never to be any more.... Now you are an eternal conscious torment + annihilation of humans hybrid? Are you really that desperate for someone to be tortured without end?

nice spin but no , again.

King of Tyrus physical death , you haven't seen him have you ?

Revelation 20:10 still future
Tyrus past tense.

But if you are serious about reviewing Ezekiel i should point out that the first part of that chapter has a prophecy aimed at a human, one that is no god for certain. He is called Prince of Tyre. The second prophecy is for one called King of Tyre... And attempting to switch the subject mid prophecy for your own personal whim or doctrinal wishes seems rather suspect. I normally see that type of method used to deny Christ deity, etc. Perhaps we should let the Bible say what its saying?

It did change
Eze 28:1-10 about the king
then its about calling Tyre satan
then about the Tyre fate
and then sidon

Sorry that you don't like the passage but it does say that the fallen angel shall be cast down and reduced to ashes never to be anymore. Plus you still have that troublesome verse that Christ only hath immortality.

God has always existed

we will always exist

You said earlier that someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

your not about the truth

Way 2 Go, I hope you aren't like Pastor Buddy. I doubt Christ wants anyone that would require that type of motivation.

Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"

But if you are I am already past the shock. I am not worried about persuading you if you choose to fight and kick against plainly stated scripture.

do you have any?


Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

second death hurts

 

[way 2 go]

Way2Go, you never answered my question. Please answer, no tricks.

Physical death.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity blossom, it is that they shall be destroyed forever;

anybody seen the king of Tyre ?

Eze 28:7 behold, therefore I will bring awesome strangers of the nations. And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring you down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of those slain in the heart of the seas.

 

[way 2 go]

LifeisGood, do you derive pleasure from the suffering of others?

I like Justice maybe that's why Christians get to judge on judgement day.

1Co 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you,

 

[Rosenritter]

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

second death hurts

Way 2 Go, inane arguments like that are why you aren't being taken seriously.

Revelation 6:6 KJV
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

I am trying to be respectful but your arguments lack both both intelligence and merit. Using the above as an example:

1. You seem to be confused as to the meaning of the word "hurt" as if it meant "pain." Please read scripture to learn word meaning. Excellent examples exist in Genesis and Revelation.

2. Even if the word "hurt" did mean "pain" or "torment" it still does nothing for your argument. Nothing in that text or context would suggest an unending application.

Seriously, what does it take for you to admit to being wrong on anything? Or will you insist that oil and wine undergo unending pain and torment?

 

[chrysostom]

John 3:16 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Rosenritter]

I like Justice maybe that's why Christians get to judge on judgement day.

1Co 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you,

That verse does not say that you or I judge the world on judgment day. That is Christ's role and no other.

Acts 10:42 KJV
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

You are not the judge of the quick and the dead. If you mean to resolve why Paul would say that the saints would judge the world and angels, look to do so without contradiction. For example, the prophesied thousand year reign with Christ after his return but before the judgment would fit... For those found worthy of that first resurrection.

 

[Rosenritter]

By all means, Rosen; be my guest! I'll be happy that you do.



You have no option Rosen but to use quotes from the OT, and thanks for starting with an easy one. Isaiah 9:6 was a prophecy about the welcome offered by the Gentiles from Galilee settled there by the Assyrians when they had conquered Israel the Ten Tribe. Their welcome was for the Jews returning from exile in Babylon. It was when Judah, the child was being born again. If you are being taken by the terms used by the Gentiles of the Galilee, think of them as pagans who were referring to the Jews as God Himself, probably a token to leave together rather then being forced out to make room for the real owners who were arriving.



Psalm 22 is not about Jesus' crucifixion for two reasons: First, Jesus was not the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Josephus speaks of thousands only in the First Century. (Wars of the Jews) And second, I see the Holocaust in Psalm 22 much more characteristically than the crucifixion of Jesus. Now, if you read Psalm 44:11-26 without Christian preconceived notions you will be more easily convinced of the Holocaust rather than Jesus' crucifixion.



That money in the transaction between Judas and the High Priest never happened. It is a forgery copied by the authors of the gospels as an analogy with the selling of Joseph by his brothers to the Egyptians.



You are right, I don't. I have the Torah in Genesis 3:22,23. The reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Divine reason why eternal life could not be shared with man. And throughout the Tanach there is no promise of eternal life for man.



For the reply to Dan. 12:2,3, you must read Isaiah 53:8,9. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the land of the living and graves assigned to them among the nations. Then, at the end of the exile, the Lord opens up their graves and takes them back to the Land of Israel. That's metaphorical bodily resurrection. (Ezekiel 37:12) So, at the end of the exile, those who agree to return to Israel analogically shine as the brightness of the firmament. Those who prefer to remain in exile are reserved for reproach and everlasting abhorrence.

Please forgive me Ben, I may have leapt too far ahead in my exploratory step. Could we go back to Genesis where I could ask some questions? Can you explain to me how you understand "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?" And Noah's flood... Are the people named real to you and do you interpret those events literally?

Bonus question: you said the sale of the potter's field never happened. Please explain how you can say that with such certainty.

 

[rstrats]

re: "someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still"

That a contradictory statement.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 to go,
re: "I like Justice maybe that's why Christians get to judge on judgement day."

I simply don't see how you can think that it is just to sentence someone to 24/7 torture for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't or couldn't meet the supreme being's requirements, nor develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being. And what would make it equally unjust and unloving would be if He knew before He created a person that He would eventually be throwing the person into the lake of fire and yet go ahead and create the person anyway.

 

[Timotheos]

Seriously though, whether someone wants to be destroyed or not is beside the point though, isn't it?

Just a little bit. Since LifeisGood made the bizarre claim that being destroyed for all eternity is a GOOD thing, I wanted to expose his lie. If being destroyed is a good thing, then Lifeisgood will want to go destroy himself. If he doesn't destroy himself it is because he knows that being destroyed isn't as great as he claimed it is, and his argument that Stalin will be happy to be destroyed is refuted.

Now all we have to do is see whether Lifeisgood destroys himself or admits that he is wrong.

 

[Timotheos]

Physical death.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity blossom, it is that they shall be destroyed forever;

anybody seen the king of Tyre ?

Eze 28:7 behold, therefore I will bring awesome strangers of the nations. And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring you down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of those slain in the heart of the seas.

You didn't answer my questions. I knew that you wouldn't. Do you want to try again or just conceed that you are wrong?

Does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed? Yes or No.
Does this mean:
A. The wicked will be destroyed?
B. The wicked will NOT be destroyed?

 

[patrick jane]

Atheists want to be destroyed

 

[Timotheos]

Atheists want to be destroyed

That is not true.

 

[Timotheos]

John 3:16 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Exactly! I don't know why "Lifeisgood" and "Way2Go" do not accept this.

Mules are stubborn too.

 

[Rosenritter]

That is not true.

Some atheists may want to be destroyed. Some people may reject life and wish destruction. That is an option.

It is a bigger problem for Tormenters however. Some people are masochistic. Eternal conscious torment would not only be Eternal life but also infinite reward. Plus the side effect of preserving sin and blasphemy for eternity. Then there are the sadists who would be delight knowing others are in infinite pain.

Oops, forgot, according to that doctrine the sadists are the ones in heaven. But the masochist dilemma remains. Maybe they are sent to heaven too.

 

[lifeisgood]

LifeisGood, do you derive pleasure from the suffering of others?

Rosenritter, do you derive pleasure from the NONpunishment of evil men, such as Mengele, who injected chemicals in the eyes of children to see if they would change from brown to blue, e.g.?

For people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mengele, etc., torturing them for eternity, FOR ME, would not be enough as the correct sentence for their crimes, IMHO.

God will EXTEND the correct sentence and He NEVER makes mistakes.

 

[lifeisgood]

How is being DESTROYED comforting? Do you comfort your children by destroying them?!
THINK about what you are claiming. You are not making any sense. They WILL be punished BY being destroyed. This is not a comfort. If you REALLY think that being destroyed is a comfort, why don't you go and destroy yourself right now? I will wait while you do it.

Oh, here is a minor point. The destruction of the wicked is not MY doctrine, it is what the Bible actually says. Read Psalm 92:7 along with many other passages that specifically speak of the destruction of the wicked. It is not MY doctrine, it is the Word of God.

I was talking about people like Hitler, Mengele, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.

So, let's see, they murder millions of people, without any compulsion at all and take pleasure in their evil deeds and then they are destroyed and never sentenced. Where is God's justice in that?

They were destroyed very happily for they did what their demented minds wanted to do and they were destroyed and never sentenced. Where is God's justice in that?

Eyes of children were injected with chemicals to see if they would change from brown to blue and the perpetrator(s) are destroyed and never sentenced. Where is God's justice in that?

One thing I DO KNOW, God is just and He will pass out the correct sentence for He never makes mistakes.

 

[lifeisgood]

Oh no! LifeisGood went and destroyed himself. I didn't think he would actually do it. I thought that his talk about how great it would be to be destroyed was merely insane rhetoric. I didn't know he was actually suicidal.

Foolish man.

For your NONdelight I did not destroy myself and by the grace of My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I am not suicidal for I have already been sentenced by Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary. Hallelujah!!