Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[patrick jane]

It says that your doctrine is based off an out of sense assumption that when humans say that "you will suffer forever" with a hidden meaning of "that's when you are unconscious". Humans never express the "forever" this way.

All in all, in order for your doctrine to be correct.

1) it is based off an out of common sense assumption

2) All the Jews in Jesus either adapted this out-of-common sense concept (i.e., forever=unconscious), or a completely wrong concept (i.e., forever=conscious)

3) In either case, you need Jesus Himself didn't correct it but to make parable on top of it

4) You need those crafted the Bible failed to address this issue, but to continue to either adapt an out-of-sense concept or a completely wrong concept without further elaboration.

5) You need the early church fathers to be wrong in the same way

6) you need Christians in majority in the past 2000 years to be wrong in the same way


This is however closely concerning the concept of salvation as here your doctrine provides an option saying that "as long as you accept an unconscious torment which you can never feel, you can legitimately reject Jesus Christ and the salvation God brought us through Him.


You need all the above to be on the wrong side for your doctrine to be correct. I'd rather believe that your doctrine is from the anti-Christ to deliver the message that "you don't actually need Christ to be saved"!

As for you, please answer the following question seriously;


One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?

It's all about God torturing souls for eternity, which God will never do.

 

[Hawkins]

It's all about God torturing souls for eternity, which God will never do.

Are you God, or with equal intelligence?


It is a long time Jewish concept that Satan and his angels will be put to this state. If angels can be devils and put to the Lake of Fire, why can't humans be the same devils?

Moreover, why don't you answer the question directly?


One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?

 

[Rosenritter]

It says that your doctrine is based off an out of sense assumption that when humans say that "you will suffer forever" with a hidden meaning of "that's when you are unconscious". Humans never express the "forever" this way.

All in all, in order for your doctrine to be correct.

1) it is based off an out of common sense assumption

2) All the Jews in Jesus either adapted this out-of-common sense concept (i.e., forever=unconscious), or a completely wrong concept (i.e., forever=conscious)

3) In either case, you need Jesus Himself didn't correct it but to make parable on top of it

4) You need those crafted the Bible failed to address this issue, but to continue to either adapt an out-of-sense concept or a completely wrong concept without further elaboration.

5) You need the early church fathers to be wrong in the same way

6) you need Christians in majority in the past 2000 years to be wrong in the same way


This is however closely concerning the concept of salvation as here your doctrine provides an option saying that "as long as you accept an unconscious torment which you can never feel, you can legitimately reject Jesus Christ and the salvation God brought us through Him.


You need all the above to be on the wrong side for your doctrine to be correct. I'd rather believe that your doctrine is from the anti-Christ to deliver the message that "you don't actually need Christ to be saved"!

As for you, please answer the following question seriously;


One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?

Hawkins, I haven't seen anyone suggest unconscious torment here. I am sure you don't mean to use a straw man argument. Maybe there is a misunderstanding? Can you back up and present your question simply enough that it is cell phone sized?

Edit add: the short answer to your question above is "false." But it begs the question, "saved from what?"

 

[way 2 go]

Way 2 Go, did you try using a dictionary? If you are relying on a modern trendy English translation that adds to the confusion becomes they don't always use correct grammar. Yet even then you won't find a single one that will translate the commandment at Mount Sinai as "You will not commit adultery."

notice how interchangeable will & shall are without changing the meaning .

Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Use a dictionary. The meaning differs. That much should be obvious from the passages with King Saul and King Solomon earlier.

:nono:

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In the day they ate of the tree we are told what happened. They were summoned by God, judged, and cast out from the garden and its source of continual life. The "shalting" occurred that day. Not the dying.

"shalting" :idunno:

I don't hear you claiming that Shimei spiritually died when he crossed the brook Kidron.

why would I ?

I think that you are confusing the words and concepts of Shall and Will (an extremely common mistake among Americans) and as a result you have created a Spiritual Death theory to try to resolve what would otherwise seem like a contradiction.

spiritual death is real

and it has nothing to do with will or shall , keep trying tho.

If you try you can get it. One says "Shall we dance" but not "Will we dance?" You don't have to use a resource like The Kings English, a dictionary should suffice.

next we shall or will discuss
lame and gimpy are they synonyms :chuckle:

Or the other option is aggressive obtuseness which prevents anything. Keep the Spiritual Death theory to explain Genesis and have no explanation for Saul and Solomon, just claim Biblical Contradiction when it becomes too inconvenient.

well you going on about the synonyms will & shall has been pointless.

Spiritual Death is what happend to Adam & Eve the day that
they ate of the tree as God told them they would die.

 

[way 2 go]

One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?

the atheist thinks there is no eternal conscious punishment
so no need for Jesus

like the lie of evolution , if no Adam & Eve , no fall , no sin,
no need of a savior, Jesus real or not becomes irrelevant.

soft tissue in dinosaur bones exposes the lie of evolution


BTW:
Rosenritter & Timotheos believe in annihilation

 

[Timotheos]

It says that your doctrine is based off an out of sense assumption that when humans say that "you will suffer forever" with a hidden meaning of "that's when you are unconscious". Humans never express the "forever" this way.

Your post is based on the assumption that I believe that humans will suffer forever, but will be unconscious the whole time they are suffering. This is not what I believe, and I never once said anything like that. The Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed. That's what I believe will happen to the wicked. You need the Bible to be wrong in order for your doctrine to be correct. Psalm 92:7 is one example of many I could give: "though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever".

As for you, please answer the following question seriously;


One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?

No. That isn't correct. The Bible says that the wicked will perish (Psalm 37:20), the wicked will be no more (Psalm 37:10), The wicked will be destroyed (Psalm 92:7). A person needs Jesus Christ to be saved from destruction. In other words, a person needs Jesus Christ in order to receive eternal life.

I answered your question. Now answer my my question seriously. Since the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, why do you believe that the wicked will not be destroyed?

 

[Timotheos]

Are you God, or with equal intelligence?

Do you believe that God will torture people forever or not. Please answer the question directly.
Do you believe that the wicked will be destroyed just as the Bible says or not? Please answer the question directly. If not, why not? Why do you think the Bible got this wrong? Please answer the question directly.
Can a soul die? Why or wny not? Does the Bible say that a soul can die? Please answer this question directly.

And do not put words into other people's mouths and then claim that is what they believe. Should I do that to you? You are wrong because you don't believe in God. There, how does it feel?

 

[Timotheos]

the atheist thinks there is no eternal conscious punishment
so no need for Jesus

like the lie of evolution , if no Adam & Eve , no fall , no sin,
no need of a savior, Jesus real or not becomes irrelevant.

soft tissue in dinosaur bones exposes the lie of evolution


BTW:
Rosenritter & Timotheos believe in annihilation

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed because the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed: "though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever." Psalm 92:7 NIV
Why do you believe that the wicked will not be destroyed when the Bible SPECIFICALLY STATES that the wicked WILL be destroyed. The need for Jesus us so that a person can have eternal life.
What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Why don't you believe what it says?

Like the lie of evolution, the lie of eternal conscious torment is proven false by what the Bible says. The wicked will be destroyed. You can't deny that the Bible says this. You must think that the Bible is wrong.

 

[Timotheos]

BTW:
Rosenritter & Timotheos believe in annihilation

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible specifically states.
I do not believe that the wicked have unconscious torment he could never feel.
I do not believe that the wicked will be given the gift of eternal life so that they can be tortured alive forever in hell, since the Bible never once says that.

 

[Rosenritter]

notice how interchangeable will & shall are without changing the meaning .

Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.




:nono:



"shalting" :idunno:




why would I ?



spiritual death is real

and it has nothing to do with will or shall , keep trying tho.




next we shall or will discuss
lame and gimpy are they synonyms :chuckle:


well you going on about the synonyms will & shall has been pointless.

Spiritual Death is what happend to Adam & Eve the day that
they ate of the tree as God told them they would die.

The two verses you posted have different meaning. One is a prediction which may or may not happen. The other is a sure prophecy. The English language carries that distinction.

Way 2 Go, it is a shame that you don't understand but it seems that you prefer not to know. Honestly in all my experience of demonstrating that grammar you are the first to keep to a "no difference" stance. Everyone else... including pastors ... At least acknowledges that the English words have different meaning. They know better than to argue with the dictionary.

Except for basic words like life, death, perish, and destroy. I have seen a lot of people argue that those words mean the opposite of dictionary meaning, but never such a persistent argument against grammar.

Please tell us then Way2go, how did Solomon, the wisest man on earth, expect Shimei to die THAT DAY when he crossed the Brook Kidron? And why did he repeat the promise before he actually executed him when the recorded events show actions had taken place that would require more than a day? Did Shimei "spiritually die?" or do we invent another imaginary type of death for this case also, like "patriotic death?"

By the way... Here are some problems for your spiritual death theory:

First - Paul says there is just one death before judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Second - there is a second death, but that only happens after the resurrection to judgment.

Revelation 2:11 KJV
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[Rosenritter]

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible specifically states.
I do not believe that the wicked have unconscious torment he could never feel.
I do not believe that the wicked will be given the gift of eternal life so that they can be tortured alive forever in hell, since the Bible never once says that.

Way 2 Go, I did not use that word here, but is there a more appropriate term to use when scripture says the devil and wicked men shall be reduced to ashes? I did not see you actually dispute those passages when they were quoted in this forum.

 

[patrick jane]

Do you believe that God will torture people forever or not. Please answer the question directly.
Do you believe that the wicked will be destroyed just as the Bible says or not? Please answer the question directly. If not, why not? Why do you think the Bible got this wrong? Please answer the question directly.
Can a soul die? Why or wny not? Does the Bible say that a soul can die? Please answer this question directly.

And do not put words into other people's mouths and then claim that is what they believe. Should I do that to you? You are wrong because you don't believe in God. There, how does it feel?

Get him Timmy

 

[Timotheos]

Way 2 Go, I did not use that word here, but is there a more appropriate term to use when scripture says the devil and wicked men shall be reduced to ashes? I did not see you actually dispute those passages when they were quoted in this forum.

I don't dispute that the wicked will be burnt to ashes. I don't know of a better way to state this than to just say what the Bible also states, that the wicked will be destroyed and the wicked will perish. The Bible certainly never says that the wicked will remain alive forever, so I see no reason to believe that!

 

[Timotheos]

BTW:
Rosenritter & Timotheos believe in annihilation

Way2Go:

I want to ask you a straightforward question, and I would like a straightforward answer, with no tricks.

Psalm 92:7 says "though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever".

Does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed? Yes or No.
Does this mean:
A. The wicked will be destroyed?
B. The wicked will NOT be destroyed?

Since the Bible itself says that the wicked will be destroyed, Why on earth would you have any problem with those of us who believe that "the wicked will be destroyed".

PLEASE answer my questions. No Tricks, just answer.

 

[Ben Masada]

Way2Go:

I want to ask you a straightforward question, and I would like a straightforward answer, with no tricks.

Psalm 92:7 says "though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever".

Does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed? Yes or No.
Does this mean:
A. The wicked will be destroyed?
B. The wicked will NOT be destroyed?

Since the Bible itself says that the wicked will be destroyed, Why on earth would you have any problem with those of us who believe that "the wicked will be destroyed".

PLEASE answer my questions. No Tricks, just answer.

My answer is: "A" Yes, the wicked will be destroyed. BTW, not only the wicked but also the righteous. It does not matter how wick or righteous one is, he or she will never be restored again back into life. So, we better live the best we can the life we have to live because there will be no other.

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't dispute that the wicked will be burnt to ashes. I don't know of a better way to state this than to just say what the Bible also states, that the wicked will be destroyed and the wicked will perish. The Bible certainly never says that the wicked will remain alive forever, so I see no reason to believe that!

Neither the righteous. The Bible never says that the righteous will live forever. The opposite is rather true if you read Genesis 3:22. The reason why Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that only God lives forever and this attribute He did not share with any man; wicked or righteous.

 

[Ben Masada]

The entire New Testament is prophesied in the OT, except for mysteries revealed to Paul.

Would you like to share with me your believe that the entire NT is prophesied in the OT? At least a quote or two in the OT which is a prophecy about the NT? If I fail to explain what the prophecy is about, I'll reconsider my views.

 

[Rosenritter]

Would you like to share with me your believe that the entire NT is prophesied in the OT? At least a quote or two in the OT which is a prophecy about the NT? If I fail to explain what the prophecy is about, I'll reconsider my views.

May I take this challenge please?

Question: may I use any of the old testament? Could we start with Isaiah 9:6? Unto us a child is born?

The problem I foresee is if you dispute the New Testament I am not sure what you will accept as fact and not. What about Jesus crucifixion? Psalm 22?

Or this?
Zechariah 11:12-13 KJV
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord .

If you talk to me a bit I can figure out what you accept or dispute and work from there. But you don't need new testament for promised eternal life.

Daniel 12:2-3 KJV
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

[Rosenritter]

Would you like to share with me your believe that the entire NT is prophesied in the OT? At least a quote or two in the OT which is a prophecy about the NT? If I fail to explain what the prophecy is about, I'll reconsider my views.

This one is as of yet unfulfilled, but I think you may understand why I chose it:

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7 KJV
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Context?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Psalm 22:16-18 KJV
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

The portion about the Lord of Hosts being pierced has been fulfilled. The part about returning in the clouds would be yet to come.

 

[way 2 go]

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: ◄ that is where it ends for lucifer



this is where it resumes for Tyrus, as satan was already cast down
▼
I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


Eze 26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Tyrus was ruined

so no contradiction the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

:carryon: