way 2 go
Well-known member
asked and answered
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Adam & Eve died that day , spiritually
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
asked and answered
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Adam & Eve died that day , spiritually
lifeisgood
New member
For me the verses you provided say 'punishment' and 'eternal.'
Who will be in this 'punishment' and 'eternal', I leave to God.
God prepared a way for one not to go to this place of 'punishment' and 'eternal' --- Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
If God said 'punishment' and 'eternal' I believe God; even when I do not comprehend something completely that I have read in the Bible.
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go, you are confusing the words punishment and punishing. The distinction also exists in Greek. That is why your repetition argument is not getting you anywhere.
If the punishment is torment, an ongoing process, then an eternal application of a process never ends.
If the punishment is cessation of existence, a state, then an eternal state never changes.
What you are doing is applying a circular reasoning instead of addressing the question.
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Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go, i have a few questions for you.
In 1 Kings 2:37 did Solomon not promise that in the day Shimei crossed the brook Kidron "thou shalt surely die?" Read the account. Does it look like he died before the sun set? Dis he spiritually die that day?
In 1 Samuel 18:21, how much time is needed to send messages back and forth with servants, to coordinate an attack force to kill 200 Philistines, sever their scrotums, return to the king, take a bath, and have a royal wedding? But didn't Saul say "this day shalt thou be my son in law in one of the twain?" Did David become his spiritual son on law that day?
Finally go back to Genesis. What does scripture actually say about when Adam died? It will actually uses the words, "and he died."
I think you are confusing the words Will and Shall as if they had the same meaning. God did not say to Adam, in the day that you eat of the fruit you WILL surely die but you are reading it as if he did. In fact it seems that your whole Spiritual Death theory hinges on that one misreading...
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Rosenritter
New member
I didn't say that I had a scripture proving that the devil had immortality. It does say that Christ only hath immortality, which would exclude the devil or anyone else. My misstatement was preceded with an "if" ... (a powerful disclaimer)
1 Timothy 6:16 KJV
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Regardless I promised proofs. For the first part I will instead as a question. Look to your Bible where it addresses a being who was cast down from heaven whom it calls Lucifer.
Isaiah 14:12 KJV
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Now for the question: how does it describe the fate of this being? Read above and below... Verses 4 - 23 is the complete section. Brought down to hell, cast out and trodden underfoot, covered with worms. Made weak like ordinary men it says...
I would elaborate more but its hard to type with just thumbs.
Luke 10:18 KJV
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
really you are making a comparison 1 Kings 2:37 & Gen 2:17.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
this was a commandment .
oh wait there's more
"and he died." how was it that he died, oh yes physically
shall and will are synonyms. :duh:
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"
do you think God did not know where they were?
Rosenritter
New member
No. Shall and will are NOT synonyms. If God says Thou shalt not worship idols and they do, they broke his commandment. If he said Thou wilt not worship idols and they do... Then they proved him wrong.
Don't argue from ignorance, look it up.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
and I thought it was aggressive ignorance , good thing your here
it is punishment, then its eternal because that's what it says
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment,
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
what state is santa clause in right now, oh wait he does not exist
can you continually , without cessation punish someone who ceases to exist?
did you even read what I wrote ?
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
not
Mat 25:46 And these will go away and be punished, but the righteous into eternal life."
way 2 go
Well-known member
in English synonyms
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
You claimed that annihilation is not eternal punishment. Do you believe that if someone were annihilated, that they would be permanently annihilated or only temporarily annihilated? If they are permanently destroyed, how is that not eternal? If they are only temporarily destroyed, how would that work?
I think you are confused.
Do you see these passages as proof that the devil is immortal? I don't see the proof, you may need to elaborate on them more. 1 Timothy 6:16 says that only God has immortality, which would exclude immortality for the devil. The passage in Luke doesn't say anything about Satan having immortality or not.
From the context you can see that Isaiah 14:12 is talking about the king of Babylon, not the devil. Read Isaiah 14:4 "that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"
First, Isaiah 14:4 says WHO this passage is talking about, the king of Babylon not Satan.
Second, Isaiah 14:4 says that he has ceased, not that he is immortal.
Third, Isaiah 14:4 says that what is to follow is a parable. It isn't proof of anyone's immortality.
Fourth, if you look at Isaiah 14:8, you can "prove" that trees can talk! If I can prove that trees can talk from the passage you are using, do you think it is the best passage to use to prove that the devil is immortal? (Especially since it doesn't even SAY that the devil is immortal!!!)
The Isaiah passage, aside from specifically stating that the king of Babylon is no more, also uses language that proves that he is dead and not alive.
The taunt says that the dead say that he has become as they are, in other words, he is dead too. This isn't proof that the dead can speak, this is a parable. Don't forget verse 4. He is brought down to Sheol, this means he is dead, Sheol is the place of the dead. "maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers", maggots and worms eat dead people. It probably goes without saying that maggots make poor beds and worms make poor covers. Obviously this passage is talking about the death of the king of Babylon. Verse 12 is still talking about the king of Babylon. Here is Isaiah 14:12 in the ESV:
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!"
"Cut down to the ground" means that he was killed. "Lucifer" is a translation of "helel", a shining one. Apparently it was a nickname for the king of Babylon. "Lucifer" isn't really the devil's name.
Do I really need to go on?
"You are cast out, away from your grave". THe passage is talking about a dead person, not an immortal being. Someone who is immortal doesn't need a grave.
You said "Made weak like ordinary men it says...". Well, no. It doesn't say "Made weak like ordinary men".
I'm sorry, I really am, but none of what you posted actually proves that the devil is immortal.
You asked me if I would believe that the devil is immortal if you were able to prove it. I said I would believe it if you showed me proof of it. You haven't. Would you accept that the devil is not immortal if there is no proof that he is? Remember that the Bible says that only God has immortality.
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go, did you try using a dictionary? If you are relying on a modern trendy English translation that adds to the confusion becomes they don't always use correct grammar. Yet even then you won't find a single one that will translate the commandment at Mount Sinai as "You will not commit adultery."
Use a dictionary. The meaning differs. That much should be obvious from the passages with King Saul and King Solomon earlier.
Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In the day they ate of the tree we are told what happened. They were summoned by God, judged, and cast out from the garden and its source of continual life. The "shalting" occurred that day. Not the dying.
Genesis 3:19 KJV
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.
Genesis 3:24 KJV
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 5:5 KJV
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
The examples of Saul and Solomon follow the same pattern, and I don't hear you claiming that Shimei spiritually died when he crossed the brook Kidron.
I think that you are confusing the words and concepts of Shall and Will (an extremely common mistake among Americans) and as a result you have created a Spiritual Death theory to try to resolve what would otherwise seem like a contradiction.
If you try you can get it. One says "Shall we dance" but not "Will we dance?" You don't have to use a resource like The Kings English, a dictionary should suffice.
Or the other option is aggressive obtuseness which prevents anything. Keep the Spiritual Death theory to explain Genesis and have no explanation for Saul and Solomon, just claim Biblical Contradiction when it becomes too inconvenient.
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Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go, Greek has a word for punishment (a thing) and a different word for punishing (a process.) It used the word for punishment, not punishing. If it meant Punishing it would have said Punishing.
All you are doing is repeating your own words. I saw pointed questions on this forum before demonstrating the concept. Everlasting salvation is not a never ending act of saving, for example. Eternal judgment is not a never ending act of judging. If you were to apply your logic(?) equally it would destroy the rest of scripture as well.
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Rosenritter
New member
Timotheos, please read carefully. I did not say that I would prove the devil was immortal. I believe I said something to the effect that I would settle once and for all whether the devil was immortal by scripture.
1. The "king of Babylon" within the parable is identified as one that was cast down from heaven. Christ's quote from the Gospels and Revelation further identities Lucifer as the devil, that old serpent,the dragon. "How art thou fallen from heaven" it says. How many men have been cast down from heaven? None. How many devils and how many of his angels though?
2. This would not be the first time a spirit was named such. Look in Daniel, do you think a human "prince of Persia" would be able to restrain Michael the archangel away from Daniel for so long?
3. Yes, the cedars speak in this parable. It is a parable, trees can speak. The cedars represent something else. Let us suppose they represent something that can speak. Then there is the King of Babylon title in this parable, Based on the description, who is the king of Babylon?
4. The ESV translation is bad in that passage. Daystar is a title of Christ (2 Peter 1:19, also "morning star" in Revelation.)The Babylonian word heylel is equivalent to Venus or Aphrodite.... A pagan deity equivalent.... Thus "Lucifer" has stuck to him since days of Latin. "Lucifer" is such a well known name of the devil that the New Zealand government has had to ban stupid mothers from naming their children that name (I think it was New Zealand?)
5. Yes it does say weak like ordinary men. What are you reading? This is what mine says:
Isaiah 14:9-10 KJV
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. [10] All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Ordinary men are raised from the dead... Kings are ordinary in this sense, ordinary mortals. Why are raised men astonished that this Lucifer is made weak?
The setting of this prophecy is when hell gives up its dead and this being called Lucifer whom tried to take over heaven but was cast down is judged. Stop reacting to ME and what does it actually say? It is in context and it DOES help answer our question of whether the devil is immortal... Just not in the direction you expected.
The Isaiah passage is well recognized as pertaining to the devil... I have even seen it written into some Baptist statement of faiths. But it would be nice to have some plainer clearer language about what it means by covered with worms and cast out without burial, wouldn't it?
Something set in that same context when an ancient created spirit being that fell from glory and was cast out is brought forth and judged before the raised kings mentioned in Isaiah 14?
Ezekiel 28:11-19 KJV
Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, [12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God ; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. [13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. [14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so : thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. [15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. [16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. [17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. [18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. [19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
That lamentation runs nicely parallel to the parable in Isaiah 14, don't you think? Can you think of anyone that was created perfect,a covering cherub, sinned, was cast out, will be laid low before kings.... And whom will in the future will be dealt with by fire?
No human king of Tyrus has walked up and down the heavenly stones of fire. For the prophecy against the human read the preceding verses instead. We have to identify this king by the description as well.
Now stop getting mad at me and what does it say happens to this fallen cherub when it is punished by fire? Does this or does this not help answer the question of whether the devil is immortal?
1. Only Christ hath immortality.
2. Lucifer fallen from heaven but in the resurrection before all made weak cast out covered with worms
3. The rebellious fallen cherub shall be laid before kings and devoured by fire to ashes and shall never be any more.
When you've taken your time to read that then we can go back to the Revelation 20:10 passage with the background knowledge we were supposed to have had in the first place.
My former eternal conscious torment proof relied that you were assuming an immortal devil when you read Revelation 20:10. I have shown the promised sections of scripture for proof one way or the other. Based on the previous scripture which is it?
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Okay, thanks. I don't think that the Isaiah passage or the Ezekiel passage is actually talking about the devil since they both specifically state that they are talking about someone else. But if the passage in Ezekiel is talking about the devil, it settles the question of the devil's immortality once and for all in Ezekiel 28:19 when it says "never shalt thou be any more".
Thanks, this also puts the question of the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10. Since the devil will cease to exist, he cannot be tortured alive forever in the lake of fire with the seven headed beast and the false prophet. Revelation 20:10 must mean something other than "the wicked will be given immortality so that God can torture them forever". If only there were some passage that John of Patmos used to indicate what he means by the lake of fire. Some passage like "The lake of fire is the second death". He does, by the way. John specifically states that the lake of fire is the second death. So Revelation 20:10 agrees with Ezekiel 28:19, that the devil will be no more. The lake of fire is a symbol that John of Patmos uses to indicate death.
Rosenritter
New member
If only there were some biblical examples of what happens when something is done or applied "for ever" to a subject with a limited lifespan or scope?
Exodus 21:5-6 KJV
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: [6] Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
There's one of them for starters.
When "for ever" is used in normal speech it seldom means mathematical infinity. It usually means a very large indefinite span of time, distance, or volume.
Isaiah 34:10-11 KJV
It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. [11] But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
"For ever" may have an infinite meaning when implied or required by context, such as "They that receive eternal life shall live for ever." But as previous biblical examples show, an application of "for ever" to a finite being ceases when that being expires.
What does this indicate about Revelation 20:10? There is a reason and a purpose of the torment, but it will take a long time indeed, and it will continue until the devil is destroyed as promised. There will be an end of evil.
The passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel give descriptions that match no human that ever lived. The only name, Lucifer, is a derivation of a pagan deity. No other names are given, but rather titles.
Hebrews 7:1-3 KJV
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; [2] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; [3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
That description Paul gives of the king of Salem doesn't seem to fit a normal man. Neither beginning of days nor end of life? Whom only hath immortality?
Besides, when Justin Martyr wrote to the Greeks and said that the devil, and his angels, and wicked men that were like him would be completely destroyed by fire at the end of the world, what Old Testament passages do you suppose he had been reading?
But there's an obvious question hanging out there. Why will the devil be tormented? God is not senselessly cruel, so for what reason? How does one torment the devil anyway?
Matthew 8:29 KJV
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
The entire New Testament is prophesied in the OT, except for mysteries revealed to Paul.
Rosenritter
New member
Hebrews 10:1 KJV
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Agreed Patrick. There is a lot more in Revelation that would be understood if people would just read Moses.
It says that your doctrine is based off an out of sense assumption that when humans say that "you will suffer forever" with a hidden meaning of "that's when you are unconscious". Humans never express the "forever" this way.
All in all, in order for your doctrine to be correct.
1) it is based off an out of common sense assumption
2) All the Jews in Jesus either adapted this out-of-common sense concept (i.e., forever=unconscious), or a completely wrong concept (i.e., forever=conscious)
3) In either case, you need Jesus Himself didn't correct it but to make parable on top of it
4) You need those crafted the Bible failed to address this issue, but to continue to either adapt an out-of-sense concept or a completely wrong concept without further elaboration.
5) You need the early church fathers to be wrong in the same way
6) you need Christians in majority in the past 2000 years to be wrong in the same way
This is however closely concerning the concept of salvation as here your doctrine provides an option saying that "as long as you accept an unconscious torment which you can never feel, you can legitimately reject Jesus Christ and the salvation God brought us through Him.
You need all the above to be on the wrong side for your doctrine to be correct. I'd rather believe that your doctrine is from the anti-Christ to deliver the message that "you don't actually need Christ to be saved"!
As for you, please answer the following question seriously;
One doesn't need Jesus Christ to be saved as long as he accepts an unconscious torment he could never feel. Is this correct or not!?