way 2 go
Well-known member
still think your wrong because you keep using verses
that deal with physical destruction and incorrectly
using them .
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
still think your wrong because you keep using verses
that deal with physical destruction and incorrectly
using them .
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Rosenritter
New member
Hmm... Seems that your decision that the prophecy "ends" is rather arbitrary. Actually, not arbitrary, but purposely chosen to try to make what you wanted. Except there is nothing in that text to suggest a change of subject.
Read Revelation. The devil will be cast down another time. You quoted the verse yourself in your post. What part of "cast into the lake of fire" did you miss?
Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The lake of fire is at ground level.
What is funny about this is that it seems you have abandoned your Pure Eternal Conscious Torment position. By assigning the King of Tyrus the devil's fate of being laid before kings and reduced to ashes, never to be any more.... Now you are an eternal conscious torment + annihilation of humans hybrid? Are you really that desperate for someone to be tortured without end?
But if you are serious about reviewing Ezekiel i should point out that the first part of that chapter has a prophecy aimed at a human, one that is no god for certain. He is called Prince of Tyre. The second prophecy is for one called King of Tyre... And attempting to switch the subject mid prophecy for your own personal whim or doctrinal wishes seems rather suspect. I normally see that type of method used to deny Christ deity, etc. Perhaps we should let the Bible say what its saying?
Also pointing out that no human denizen of Tyre was ever cast to the ground. They didn't fly back then.
Sorry that you don't like the passage but it does say that the fallen angel shall be cast down and reduced to ashes never to be anymore. Plus you still have that troublesome verse that Christ only hath immortality.
You said earlier that someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. I showed these passages to a pastor once and asked him if the devil wouldn't survive the fire at the end of the world, how he expected mortals to fare any better. He responded that regardless he would choose to believe what he wanted to believe and that he needed to believe people would be visibly tortured for infinity....
... Because without that he did not believe he would stay loyal to God. He would need the constant threat...
Wow.
What a testimony. What do you say to that? What could be said?
Way 2 Go, I hope you aren't like Pastor Buddy. I doubt Christ wants anyone that would require that type of motivation. But if you are I am already past the shock. I am not worried about persuading you if you choose to fight and kick against plainly stated scripture. Maybe you will have a Road to Damascus moment... Or not. But there are plenty of others who have never heard who can so easily understand when they are allowed to see the scripture themselves.
way 2 go
Well-known member
no
ad hominem
Honestly shall and will are synonyms
I have never argued shall and will are synonyms before.
spontaneous combustion
to hear himself talk. is there a point to this?
2Sa_19:23 And the king said to Shimei, You shall not die. And the king swore to him.
1Ki 2:8 And, behold, with you is Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, who cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim. But he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I swore to him by Jehovah, saying, I will not put you to death with the sword.
1Ki 2:9 And now, do not hold him guiltless. For you are a wise man, and you know what you ought to do to him. But bring his gray head down to the grave with blood.
1Ki 2:44 And the king said to Shimei, You know all the wickedness that your heart knows, what you did to David my father. And Jehovah shall return your wickedness on your own head.
1Ki 2:46 And the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and he went out and fell on him so that he died. And the kingdom was made sure in the hand of Solomon.
physical death
Not Paul his letters always start with Paul
but the bible says that, physical death then the judgement
you never explained this verse correctly
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
so what is the second death like
is it like
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
or
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
or
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
will not be hurt of the second death.
second death hurts :think:
can't hurt if you don't exist
No. If you are correct and the wicked will go to hell to live forever being tormented alive, then the Bible is wrong when it says that the wicked will be destroyed. Why do you believe that the wicked will not be destroyed when the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed? If this only meant "physically destroyed", then the righteous would ALSO be destroyed. The Bible says that the wicked will perish, and only those who believe in the Son of God will have eternal life. You never said what John 3:16 says in your Bible, and why you don't believe what it says. Matthew 25:46 doesn't help you, because we BOTH believe in eternal punishment and it specifically states that only the righteous go into eternal life. You also have the wicked going into eternal life, being tormented alive forever in hell.
I noticed that you are unable to answer my other questions. You must be stumped by them. It is a failure of the doctrine of torture that makes the torturists unable to answer questions directly.
Way2Go, you never answered my question. Please answer, no tricks.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love does not inflict or cause pain or suffering TO NO END.
God is Love.
ECT is insane.
Remember, English words do not always convey the exact/precise meaning of a greek word, hence the problems or complexities of 'translation'. To say that one will be 'hurt', 'harmed' or 'injured' by the second death can still include that one being 'destroyed' or 'disintegrated'. To be destroyed or terminated is certainly 'hurtful' in relation to 'life' or 'survival'. These are relative terms, constrasting the qualities and conditions of 'life' and 'death'.
lifeisgood
New member
and Jealous, and Just, and Justice, and Judge, and Righteousness.....
Rosenritter
New member
Didn't Christ "suffer" the little children to come unto him? From some of the counter arguments I have seen of late it seems that there lacks a basic proficiency in English.
Luke 18:16 KJV
But Jesus called them unto him , and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Tim, there comes a point when it does not help to entertain someone when they are using tactics of aggressive ignorance or spammed stupidity. I think someone is just trying to divert the thread away from any thing constructive. I am still aiming at resolution.
By any chance is there someone that would like to put forth questions or challenge other than Way 2 Go? His logic circuits seem to have blown a fuse...
(spontaneous combustion? Really?)
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Right. Eternal Torture is not "Just", "Justice" or "Righteousness".
God gives the gift of eternal life to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not receive the gift of eternal life will perish. No man can receive eternal life except through Christ. John 3:16
lifeisgood
New member
Satan, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. are very happy they don't have to worry about eternity. How comforting.
Correct.
How comforting for those who REJECT such an awesome gift of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
Correct.
Rosenritter
New member
Re: "Honestly shall and will are synonyms"
Honestly they are not. Read please.
http://www.bartleby.com/116/213.html
The English Bible was not written with sloppy casually misused English but with precision. They even invented the Thee and Thou convention to properly render the nuances of the underlying Hebrew and Greek grammar. Shall and Will were used with meaning. Although there might be occasions where either might seem to work they are not interchangeable in proper speech.
The cat ran out the door.
The dog ran out the door.
In a case where the dog chased the cat out the door either Dog or Cat might seem to work, but that does not mean they are interchangeable or synonyms.
When the devil says "I will ascend to heaven and I will be like the most high" he is expressing HIS will. "Shall" would make no sense, as it would indicate that he was only following orders or had no other option... Doing someone else's will.
If I say "you shall learn this" I am expressing an order... Your "will" does not enter into the equation. If i say "you will understand" it is a prediction.... As ultimately it is up to you and your will whether it actually happens.
Its not that difficult. Should is related to shall and would to will.
"I shall drown" means I don't want to drown but it is happening. "I will drown" is a statement of suicide intent.
Honestly they are not. Read please.
http://www.bartleby.com/116/213.html
The English Bible was not written with sloppy casually misused English but with precision. They even invented the Thee and Thou convention to properly render the nuances of the underlying Hebrew and Greek grammar. Shall and Will were used with meaning. Although there might be occasions where either might seem to work they are not interchangeable in proper speech.
The cat ran out the door.
The dog ran out the door.
In a case where the dog chased the cat out the door either Dog or Cat might seem to work, but that does not mean they are interchangeable or synonyms.
When the devil says "I will ascend to heaven and I will be like the most high" he is expressing HIS will. "Shall" would make no sense, as it would indicate that he was only following orders or had no other option... Doing someone else's will.
If I say "you shall learn this" I am expressing an order... Your "will" does not enter into the equation. If i say "you will understand" it is a prediction.... As ultimately it is up to you and your will whether it actually happens.
Its not that difficult. Should is related to shall and would to will.
"I shall drown" means I don't want to drown but it is happening. "I will drown" is a statement of suicide intent.
Rosenritter
New member
LifeIsGood, you are mistaken.
Satan is desperate because he knows his time is short. It is written.
Revelation 12:12 KJV
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
As for Hitler, Stalin, and Calvin, they are not happy. They are dead. The dead know nothing not even that they are dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
As for whether they will be happy in the judgement that is not for me to say. The judgment has not happened yet and their individual outcomes not yet written. Regardless... Does your happiness depend upon the misery of others? Or would you be wroth like Jonah if others repent and are forgiven? Think about that.
Jonah 4:9-11 KJV
And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. [10] Then said the Lord , Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: [11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
1 Timothy 1:15 KJV
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I don't know what you mean. Is it YOUR view that Satan, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot are happy right now? Is it YOUR view that they are in heaven? Because that certainly is NOT MY view!
Is it YOUR view that YOU would be better off being destroyed rather than receiving eternal life? That is what you seem to be saying.
You admitted that No man can receive eternal life except through Christ. If Satan and Stalin do not have eternal life, how can they possibly have eternal life in hell being tortured alive? Think about the contradictory statements you are making.
The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. It is idiotic to claim that being destroyed would make them HAPPY!
lifeisgood
New member
They did not worry while on earthy about God's judgment assassinating millions of human beings and they do not worry about God's judgment now according to YOUR doctrine for the ONLY judgment they will receive from God, according to you, is that they are going to disappear. How comforting for them.
Rosenritter
New member
LifeisGood, do you derive pleasure from the suffering of others?
How is being DESTROYED comforting? Do you comfort your children by destroying them?!
THINK about what you are claiming. You are not making any sense. They WILL be punished BY being destroyed. This is not a comfort. If you REALLY think that being destroyed is a comfort, why don't you go and destroy yourself right now? I will wait while you do it.
Oh, here is a minor point. The destruction of the wicked is not MY doctrine, it is what the Bible actually says. Read Psalm 92:7 along with many other passages that specifically speak of the destruction of the wicked. It is not MY doctrine, it is the Word of God.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Dive in, the waters warm.....
Dive in, the waters warm.....
Hi Rosenritter,
As you may know by my commentary so far,...my reference to 'suffering' was towards ECT in hellfire,...a pernicious, insidious doctrine,...where souls are tormented TO NO END or purpose, except to keep these souls FOREVER in a state of unhappiness, deprivation, pain, agony, etc. It is 'suffering' for the sake of 'suffering',....which is illogical, while 'suffering' inspired or endured by love, hope and faith....engenders life, learning, hope, eternal survival, attraction towards 'God', salvation, restoration, etc. This is why I've also included the logics and rationale of Universal Salvation as well in my discourses, as well as 'conditional immortality', both views being more tenable than ECT. Love does not inflict punishment to no end. - that is antithesis of love.
Way 2 Go has been given plenty of resource materials, language lessons and so on on the issue of 'aionios', and the basic irrationality of ECT on many levels, but just sputters back the same responses enforcing his own belief-system and conclusions on the matter, without bothering to research the evidence or logics provided, or so it seems. Its lock n key apologetics. Its just one continual 'repeat' of souls being 'eternally punished' in hellfire (a continual infliction with no relief, resolve or reform), over and over and over and over TO NO END. Its complete insanity.
While Tim has set out here to find out what is 'biblical' on the matter, (a term I find somewhat arbritrary),....there does seem to be more support for 'conditional immortality' which is against ECT,....but there are passages that can be used to support Universalism as well, which also rejects ECT looking at the issue from different angles, so there appears to be no 'absolute' single viewpoint that is perfect, apart from what universal laws, values, meanings and principles hold true, and how we dissect or interpret particular passages. Hence I take a more rational, philosophical and even scientific approach to the subject. All else beyond what can be rationally ascertained or assumed is speculation.
Dive in, the waters warm.....
Hi Rosenritter,
As you may know by my commentary so far,...my reference to 'suffering' was towards ECT in hellfire,...a pernicious, insidious doctrine,...where souls are tormented TO NO END or purpose, except to keep these souls FOREVER in a state of unhappiness, deprivation, pain, agony, etc. It is 'suffering' for the sake of 'suffering',....which is illogical, while 'suffering' inspired or endured by love, hope and faith....engenders life, learning, hope, eternal survival, attraction towards 'God', salvation, restoration, etc. This is why I've also included the logics and rationale of Universal Salvation as well in my discourses, as well as 'conditional immortality', both views being more tenable than ECT. Love does not inflict punishment to no end. - that is antithesis of love.
Way 2 Go has been given plenty of resource materials, language lessons and so on on the issue of 'aionios', and the basic irrationality of ECT on many levels, but just sputters back the same responses enforcing his own belief-system and conclusions on the matter, without bothering to research the evidence or logics provided, or so it seems. Its lock n key apologetics. Its just one continual 'repeat' of souls being 'eternally punished' in hellfire (a continual infliction with no relief, resolve or reform), over and over and over and over TO NO END. Its complete insanity.
While Tim has set out here to find out what is 'biblical' on the matter, (a term I find somewhat arbritrary),....there does seem to be more support for 'conditional immortality' which is against ECT,....but there are passages that can be used to support Universalism as well, which also rejects ECT looking at the issue from different angles, so there appears to be no 'absolute' single viewpoint that is perfect, apart from what universal laws, values, meanings and principles hold true, and how we dissect or interpret particular passages. Hence I take a more rational, philosophical and even scientific approach to the subject. All else beyond what can be rationally ascertained or assumed is speculation.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Final death for a soul....but nothing of value is ever lost....
Final death for a soul....but nothing of value is ever lost....
If it is true that the full, total embrace of iniquity begets death, then anything given over to that law of sin and death (totally) without engaging the choice of salvation or repentance DIES, is no more, it is disintegrated....it becomes wholly unreal, non-existence. But for this to happen we must again assume a final and complete embrace of iniquity has taken place from which there is no return, the soul has made a complete and final choice of annihilation. This is an interesting condition to consider, metaphysically speaking. I believe however that since energy is of an eternal subsistence and undergoes transformation,...that aspects of any soul that are given over to the second death that have eternal value or meaning to the greater collective consciousness and to 'God' himself are preserved and carried on in the experiential OverSoul of creation, and may even be carried over into other souls, but this is of course is speculative on my part, drawing from some other schools of thought outside the 'biblical' rim
- this is assuming anything of eternal value or meaning is never lost, but added to the Collective
This allows us to see that even though a soul in one lifetime has chosen to self-destruct or fully embrace sin to the point of destruction, that some good or value of their life experience continues on in the social-memory complex, soul group or collective consciousness. Also consider that when anyone dies in our current earthly sphere of existence,...we still have a 'memory' of them,...they are just no longer present in a flesh-body,...they still live on in 'memory'. Now 'memory' itself is a fascinating subject too.
Be well.....
Final death for a soul....but nothing of value is ever lost....
If it is true that the full, total embrace of iniquity begets death, then anything given over to that law of sin and death (totally) without engaging the choice of salvation or repentance DIES, is no more, it is disintegrated....it becomes wholly unreal, non-existence. But for this to happen we must again assume a final and complete embrace of iniquity has taken place from which there is no return, the soul has made a complete and final choice of annihilation. This is an interesting condition to consider, metaphysically speaking. I believe however that since energy is of an eternal subsistence and undergoes transformation,...that aspects of any soul that are given over to the second death that have eternal value or meaning to the greater collective consciousness and to 'God' himself are preserved and carried on in the experiential OverSoul of creation, and may even be carried over into other souls, but this is of course is speculative on my part, drawing from some other schools of thought outside the 'biblical' rim
- this is assuming anything of eternal value or meaning is never lost, but added to the Collective This allows us to see that even though a soul in one lifetime has chosen to self-destruct or fully embrace sin to the point of destruction, that some good or value of their life experience continues on in the social-memory complex, soul group or collective consciousness. Also consider that when anyone dies in our current earthly sphere of existence,...we still have a 'memory' of them,...they are just no longer present in a flesh-body,...they still live on in 'memory'. Now 'memory' itself is a fascinating subject too.
Be well.....
Rosenritter
New member
Seriously though, whether someone wants to be destroyed or not is beside the point though, isn't it?
I guarantee that no one will continue to want to be destroyed after they are destroyed. Because the dead do not "want" anything...
But isn't the purpose of the destruction to remove all evil, including those that cannot (or will not) grasp the meaning of love and forgiveness?
Which is precisely why the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is so dangerous. It trains and even recruits people against love, forgiveness, justice, and mercy. From the parables we read, are the bloodthirsty forgiven of their sins?
Luke 6:37 KJV
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Those that cry out for infinite torment of their enemies are treading dangerous ground.
Luke 9:54-55 KJV
And when his disciples James and John saw this , they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
They weren't even talking about unending conscious torment there.... How much more should that apply here?