Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Since there is nothing eternal about man, .

Ben,

Why does Yonah cry out from Sheol?

3And he said: I called out from my distress to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of the grave I cried out, You heard my voice. גוַיֹּאמֶר קָרָאתִי מִצָּרָה לִי אֶל יְהֹוָה וַיַּעֲנֵנִי מִבֶּטֶן שְׁאוֹל שִׁוַּעְתִּי שָׁמַעְתָּ קוֹלִי:

 

[Rosenritter]

But I also remember that Adam and Eve died the moment they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree. So, how God will pass sentence on these monsters, and ones such as them, it will be the correct sentence for it will be perfect and ALL including the ones being passed sentence on will not be able to say it was not the correct sentence and they will be happy with the sentence was the one that it was for God will make them comprehend fully the why.

Why so you think Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the forbidden tree? We know when Adam died.... Nine hundred and thirty years later with sons and daughters from Eve.

 

[Rosenritter]

Ben,

Why does Yonah cry out from Sheol?

3And he said: I called out from my distress to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of the grave I cried out, You heard my voice. גוַיֹּאמֶר קָרָאתִי מִצָּרָה לִי אֶל יְהֹוָה וַיַּעֲנֵנִי מִבֶּטֶן שְׁאוֹל שִׁוַּעְתִּי שָׁמַעְתָּ קוֹלִי:

Because it is a metaphor. Read the next line where he defines sheol as "the belly of the fish"...

 

[lifeisgood]

Why so you think Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the forbidden tree? We know when Adam died.... Nine hundred and thirty years later with sons and daughters from Eve.

Immediately they knew they were naked.

 

[Timotheos]

Immediately they knew they were naked.

What? Can you piece together the logic here?
They knew they were naked so that means they were dead?
Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of dead people, and none of them were naked.
I've seen a few naked people and none of them were dead.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Since they knew they were naked, they also knew that they weren't dead?

 

[Timotheos]

The squirrel in my back yard knew where he kept his nuts until the day he died.
He was 930 years old when he died.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Because it is a metaphor. Read the next line where he defines sheol as "the belly of the fish"...

I did and you are correct, but it implies by truth of scripture that Yonah's body was in the fish, while his spirit cried out from the grave.

To say he lived is much less believable, than his body died and he was resurrected to the Ninivites.

This gels with all of The scriptures much more than to refute that it says grave figuratively.

What is so bad about God being able to commune with us even after death?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Because it is a metaphor. Read the next line where he defines sheol as "the belly of the fish"...

Also, Sheol is a Jewish teaching as well as the bosom of Abraham.

Do I remove these as well?

Sure different sects differ in idea, but orthodox interpretation would be that Sheol is indeed real.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Um, I want to specify in relation to torment that I'm not proclaiming one way or another on this one. That is a debate that I'm not up for right now.

Although, I might add that the words of the TaNaKh consistently say the wicked are destroyed.

Even Jesus eludes to God being able to destroy the soul.

 

[Ben Masada]

Because it is a metaphor. Read the next line where he defines sheol as "the belly of the fish".

Because in that dream that Jonah had, the belly of the fish was akin to Sheol though not a grave. Yes, Rosen, were you aware that every thing in that text happened to Jonah in a dream. Jonah was a prophet and, dream or vision was the method chosen by HaShem to reveal His will to His Servants the prophets. (Numbers 12:6) In the case of prophet Jonah, it was a dream within a dream. Keep on reading to understand what I mean:

A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

As a prelude to this thread, I would like my fellow posters to read with me what the Torah says in Numbers 12:6. "Should there be a prophet among you, in visions will I reveal Myself to him; in dreams will I speak to him; said the Lord."

Jonah was a prophet among the Israelites who were left behind when Assyria conquered the Ten Tribes of Israel in Samaria, the Kingdom of the North. Jonah had never forgiven the destruction of ten of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Babylon was rising and, the news around was that Nineveh, the capital of Assyria was first in line for destruction.

Then Jonah had a dream. The Lord would let him know that he cared for all, and not only for Judah left behind in the South. Nineveh had to be given a chance to escape, at least for the time being; and Jonah had been chosen to let them know. For a moment or two, Jonah was happy that the Nivevites were about to meet their end. But that was not God's will. In a dream, to run away from his mission, Jonah went down to Joppa and took a ship to Tarshish.

Once aboard, to prevent any unnecessary conversation, he went down into the hold of the ship, lay down there and fell fast asleep; and he had a dream; the second dream within the first. There was such a tempest upon the sea that the ship was in danger to sink. The mariners became frightened and agreed to cast lots to find out who was to blame for what was happening. They woke Jonah up and had him participate in the lot casting, which proved Jonah to be the cause of all evil.

Jonah hated the Ninevites so much so that he preferred to die than to see them escape destruction, such as they had done to Israel. Hence, he himself advised the mariners to throw him into the sea if they wanted to save themselves from disaster. At least, the Ninevites would not escape their fate. But Jonah could not get rid of his responsibility as a prophet, for a large fish swallowed him down and spewed him upon the shore after three days.

That's when Jonah woke up from his double dream and understood that it was useless to run away from his prophetic responsibility. He rose and went to Nineveh to fulfill his mission. The Ninevites believed, repented of their wrong ways, and had their lives extended for a few years more.

Source: The book of Jonah.

 

[Rosenritter]

I did and you are correct, but it implies by truth of scripture that Yonah's body was in the fish, while his spirit cried out from the grave.

To say he lived is much less believable, than his body died and he was resurrected to the Ninivites.

This gels with all of The scriptures much more than to refute that it says grave figuratively.

What is so bad about God being able to commune with us even after death?

Except for a few things, including that the Bible says the dead know nothing, not even that they are dead, and that they cannot praise the Lord. I am sure you could find those but references supplied on request. And did you notice that this hell has a belly?

Jonah 2:1-2 KJV
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, [2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord , and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

I remember an angry Baptist preacher proclaim that Jonah's BODY was in the whale but his SOUL was burning in hell!

Jonah 2:5 KJV
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

I asked him how that was possible seeing that his soul was surrounded by water and weeds wrapped around his head. No answer, not invited back to that church.

But the point is that hell here is simply a metaphor for death or the place of the dead. Most times it is in the earth, but Jonah here realizes he could die in this fish. No need to resort to spiritism as an explanation. No need to create a philosophy that runs counter to inspired scripture.

Psalm 115:17 KJV
The dead praise not the Lord , neither any that go down into silence.

 

[Rosenritter]

Also, Sheol is a Jewish teaching as well as the bosom of Abraham.

Do I remove these as well?

Sure different sects differ in idea, but orthodox interpretation would be that Sheol is indeed real.

It might be important to distinguish the difference between Jewish folklore and scripture. Israel chased after idols and mixed with pagan cultures.

Wouldn't Moses and the prophets have higher precedence than Jewish fable or non scripture sources like the book of Jasher?

 

[rstrats]

lifeisgood,

You have a question directed to you in post #5166.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Except for a few things, including that the Bible says the dead know nothing, not even that they are dead, and that they cannot praise the Lord. I am sure you could find those but references supplied on request. And did you notice that this hell has a belly?

Jonah 2:1-2 KJV
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, [2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord , and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

I remember an angry Baptist preacher proclaim that Jonah's BODY was in the whale but his SOUL was burning in hell!

Jonah 2:5 KJV
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

I asked him how that was possible seeing that his soul was surrounded by water and weeds wrapped around his head. No answer, not invited back to that church.

But the point is that hell here is simply a metaphor for death or the place of the dead. Most times it is in the earth, but Jonah here realizes he could die in this fish. No need to resort to spiritism as an explanation. No need to create a philosophy that runs counter to inspired scripture.

Psalm 115:17 KJV
The dead praise not the Lord , neither any that go down into silence.

Alright, you forced my hand..

I don't believe in Eternal torment.

And it was Jesus that led me to this Revelation.

It was a way He prophesied His death and resurrection to the Jews.

Hell is a modern teaching.

But Revelation makes it clear there are 2 deaths.

Jesus makes it clear there is death of the body, and death of the soul.

As far as "I give you the sign of Jonah", I had to research this when a Muslim challenged me to expand on it. I was embarrassed I did not know the answer, but when I came back with.... Wow... I understand what Jesus my savior was saying thanks to you, to them... We'll... Let's just say they didn't expect that rebuttals and description.

Also the word Sheol comes out of Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts. In addition the word hell was used in place of Gehenna. Which is much more clear as to everything.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

More specifically, only the teaching that there is existence in spiritual form after death explains

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,
the righteous for the unrighteous,[t]
that He might bring you to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm[v]
but made alive in the spiritual realm.[w]
19 In that state[x] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[y] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people[z]—were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge[aa] of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God’s right hand with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.

 

[Rosenritter]

A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

That's when Jonah woke up from his double dream and understood that it was useless to run away from his prophetic responsibility. He rose and went to Nineveh to fulfill his mission. The Ninevites believed, repented of their wrong ways, and had their lives extended for a few years more.

Source: The book of Jonah.

Except that it doesn't say that God sent Jonah a dream here. Besides, if we take your story to its logical conclusion, how do we know that anything happened at all? Maybe the whole thing was a dream? Maybe creation was just a dream. Maybe you are just a figment of my dream? Where does this stop?

There are places where we are told that God spoke through a dream but Jonah is written as if the events actually happened. Besides, Jesus references the event as if it were real.

Matthew 12:40 KJV
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I will admit the possibility that Jonah could have died and revived any number of times, but it doesn't say that so it shouldn't be assumed. I do know that the dead don't pray so if that happened the prayer would have been during the living portions.

 

[Ben Masada]

Um, I want to specify in relation to torment that I'm not proclaiming one way or another on this one. That is a debate that I'm not up for right now.

Although, I might add that the words of the TaNaKh consistently say the wicked are destroyed.

Even Jesus eludes to God being able to destroy the soul.

Nameless, let me tell you something about the soul that you seem to speak of as something we have and could lose it.

When HaShem formed man from dust of the earth, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be and not to have. We don't have souls; we are souls. The soul is only the combination of the body with the breath of life. (Genesis 2:7) And that combination is undone when we die; the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life goes back to God Who gave it. The word spirit used to identify the breath of life is only an euphemism to enhance Divine credibility. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)The point I am trying to make here is that every one is a soul and not possessor of a soul.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

These verses are also relevant to the fact that Hebrews 11 states: 39 All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Notice it says without us... It is also says until in many translations.

This is key, because of the until being "it is finished"

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Nameless, let me tell you something about the soul that you seem to speak of as something we have and could lose it.

When HaShem formed man from dust of the earth, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be and not to have. We don't have souls; we are souls. The soul is only the combination of the body with the breath of life. (Genesis 2:7) And that combination is undone when we die; the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life goes back to God Who gave it. The word spirit used to identify the breath of life is only an euphemism to enhance Divine credibility. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)The point I am trying to make here is that every one is a soul and not possessor of a soul.

We agree. I believe God has full dominion over them, and purchased all of them at a great price.

Breath, Numa, Spirit