Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Ben Masada]

That's why this conversation is pointless, and why I usually do not participate in it. The evidence is clear- in all actuality, you all should be the one's having to prove that Hell doesn't exist_ which so far, have entirely failed to do.

Why prove something that we ourselves are eyewitnesses of its existence? Hell exists and we are all heading into it, soon or later. What does not exist is the "Inferno of Dante," a Hellenist version of the hell-fire copied by Christianity to govern through fear.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

The version I put up is a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate, as is appropriate since we are speaking on the theology of Jerome's time.



Hell is a place eternal punishment for the wicked. The 'version' is irrelevant.



My claim (reality) makes perfect sense, it's just that there is literally nothing a person can do that will have you admit there is a Hell. That is sort of what 'denial' is all about, and that is exactly what you all labor under.

That's why this conversation is pointless, and why I usually do not participate in it. The evidence is clear- in all actuality, you all should be the one's having to prove that Hell doesn't exist_ which so far, have entirely failed to do.

Jude lists Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of Hell. It was consumed by fire and is no more.

The OT continually says that the Wicked shall perish and come to no more. The concept of eternal hell is backed up by scripture buried in alagory and parable, while the utter end and destruction of the wicked is listed in the OT and NT so many times it gets redicuoulsy redundant.

The God that had the Pharasees drop their stones is the same God that has charge over ALL souls.

Are you sure that burden of proof is on those that don't believe in torment?

The Jews that rejected Jesus rejected Him for dispensing healing and grace

Yup, I'm about to copy and paste someone else, but this is in complete keeping with my point, only it is only a tip of the scriptural iceberg in undeniable exegesis.

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in hell.

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”

This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious hell.

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”

Of course, if one believes in eternal hell, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in hell.

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”

To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”

This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in hell. In the traditional hell it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left.

This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal hell, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.

Again, hell is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious hell is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Again, to believe in hell, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in hell.

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“

Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.

Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“

There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal hell don’t believe one is destroyed in hell, but lives there forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”

Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in hell.

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in hell, but just means what it says– destroyed.
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“

Again, if Paul meant hell, he should have said it– seems like everyone talks about perishing, being destroyed– but doesn’t talk about hell.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“

Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is hell” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

Another version of the same term… destroyed.

James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence…

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

More specifically, does the God that walked amongst us to save us play into a torturous God, or a Merciful God?

Lastly, shall we draw our character of God from the Qu'ran?

Sarah An Nisa 4:56

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِنَا سَوْفَ نُصْلِيهِمْ نَارًا كُلَّمَا نَضِجَتْ جُلُودُهُمْ بَدَّلْنَاهُمْ جُلُودًا غَيْرَهَا لِيَذُوقُواْ الْعَذَابَ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا

(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. [4-56]

M Shakir's Quran Translation

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Pickthall's Quran Translation

Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs -- We shall certainly roast them at a Fire; as often as their skins are wholly burned, We shall give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Arberry's Quran Translation

Shall we give Muhammed the theological keys to the kingdom now for agreeing with you?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Why prove something that we ourselves are eyewitnesses of its existence? Hell exists and we are all heading into it, soon or later. What does not exist is the "Inferno of Dante," a Hellenist version of the hell-fire copied by Christianity to govern through fear.

[emoji33][emoji85][emoji106]

Dang, you said it right. How embarrassing that people don't get it!

 

[Timotheos]

That's why this conversation is pointless, and why I usually do not participate in it. The evidence is clear...

If the evidence for Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) in Hell really IS clear, then you ought to be able to provide clear proof of ECT from Scripture. Since you haven't provided any clear proof of ECT in hell, then either there is no clear evidence of it - Or you are just too lazy to provide the evidence you claim is there.

The Biblical Evidence that the wicked will be destroyed is clear and overwhelming. The Bible specifically states in many passages that the wicked will be destroyed. Psalm 92:7 is one convenient example. In actuality, you should prove that ECT in hell is true according to the Bible, but you have entirely failed to do so.

 

[Bright Raven]

If the evidence for Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) in Hell really IS clear, then you ought to be able to provide clear proof of ECT from Scripture. Since you haven't provided any clear proof of ECT in hell, then either there is no clear evidence of it - Or you are just too lazy to provide the evidence you claim is there.

The Biblical Evidence that the wicked will be destroyed is clear and overwhelming. The Bible specifically states in many passages that the wicked will be destroyed. Psalm 92:7 is one convenient example. In actuality, you should prove that ECT in hell is true according to the Bible, but you have entirely failed to do so.

Why do you continue to argue against that which is biblical

Revelation 20:7-15 New International Version (NIV)

The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[way 2 go]

It does indeed look bad for them...

And yet, I still leave theological room.. After knowing He's the God that came amongst us and shocked the system of theology, I acknowledge that only He has the full plan. He does love to surprise us in ways we didn't see coming after all...

Jesus never ever or any disciple for that matter
asked a demon to repent.

rebuked demons , yes.

 

[Rosenritter]

The version I put up is a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate, as is appropriate since we are speaking on the theology of Jerome's time.



Hell is a place eternal punishment for the wicked. The 'version' is irrelevant.



My claim (reality) makes perfect sense, it's just that there is literally nothing a person can do that will have you admit there is a Hell. That is sort of what 'denial' is all about, and that is exactly what you all labor under.

That's why this conversation is pointless, and why I usually do not participate in it. The evidence is clear- in all actuality, you all should be the one's having to prove that Hell doesn't exist_ which so far, have entirely failed to do.

You should look up instances of the word hell in your Bible. It isn't exactly synonymous with a place of eternal punishment. Peter says that Jesus was not left in hell. In the resurrection hell gives up its dead. The more accurate meaning is the place or state of death.

Hell holds the dead until they are raised but the first death isn't an eternal punishment. People are raised from the first death. It is the second death that is eternal.

But please explain why ANYONE should be assuming Dante's hell as a given instead of using what the scripture tells us in black and white and sometimes red?

I have no idea which Bible paraphrase you are reading from there. Does your argument still work if you use King James?

For that matter I am not sure what you are arguing.... By "deny hell" do you mean the "Dante's Inferno" version of hell?

By the way, how do you figure that hell does not mean absolute death from your reasoning that it says it would be better to enter into life minus an arm? Life is the opposite of death, and surgeons often will sacrifice limbs because that is seen as preferable to death. Your claim makes no sense.

 

[Rosenritter]

Regarding Matthew 25:46,

For the thousandth time, "Eternal Punishment" does not prove "Eternal Torment".
Eternal Death is also an eternal punishment.

How would you infernalists feel if I said "The punishment for sin is Eternal Death because Matthew 25:46 says "eternal punishment"? Wouldn't you call me out? Wouldn't you be correct to do so? So why can't you see that Matthew 25:46 is NO proof that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment? Is it just a matter of your general lack of intelligence? Willful Blindness? Donkey Stubbornness? Self Righteous Arrogance? Spiritual Laziness? What IS it? Why does EVERY ECTist bring up Matthew 25:46 as if it said "The eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment"?

Actually I sometimes DO say that to Infernalists. The word is "punishment" and not "punishing" and the Greek also has that distinction.

 

[Rosenritter]

Why do you continue to argue against that which is biblical

Revelation 20:7-15 New International Version (NIV)

The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mr. Raven, are you assuming the devil is immortal as you read that passage? Tim used to make that assumption. I pretended to hold your position and "proved" eternal conscious torment based on that passage. Even quoted "the devil only hath immortality" as support.

Then I chastised him for allowing me to misquote scripture so badly and used multiple passages to prove that the prophesied result of the devil being thrown to that fire was eventual total destruction to nothingness. That part puts a whole new light on what it's talking about.

I think we agreed that the devil WILL have to "man up" and endure the torment of standing trial through that judgment until the end, his end. You cannot interpret Revelation to contradict multiple prophets and epistles. If you page back two weeks you can see those same passages yourself.

A note: Justin Martyr was pretty clear when he said that devils and wicked angels and men like him would be totally destroyed by fire at end end of the world. He didn't quote scripture when speaking to the Greeks but he was meticulous about references when speaking to Jews. That set me to looking why Justin would say such a thing... And once I started reading again it was easy to see what Justin must have as well.

Jesus expects us to interpret scripture by prior scripture. You're supposed to have already read the prophets before putting new meanings into Revelation.

Luke 24:25-27 KJV
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: [26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? [27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Mark 12:24 KJV
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Timotheos]

Why do you continue to argue against that which is biblical

I don't. I agree with what is biblical. As for the lake of fire, the passage you posted specifically states that the lake of fire is the second death. This agrees with the rest of the Bible which you have been arguing against, that the wages of sin is death and the wicked will be completely destroyed.

Why do you continue to argue against what is biblical. Read John 3:16 and tell me exactly what it says in your Bible, and then tell me why you don't believe what it says.

I want you to tell me if you AGREE or DISAGREE with this statement. Don't play games, just tell me plainly if you agree or disagree:
The wicked shall be destroyed for ever.

 

[Timotheos]

Actually I sometimes DO say that to Infernalists. The word is "punishment" and not "punishing" and the Greek also has that distinction.

I know, and they have been shown many times that Matthew 25:46 is actually far better prove that one group receives eternal life and the other doesn't, so they are completely without excuse for bring it up.

Why do they continue to argue against that which is biblical? I think it is spiritual blindness. I don't know what else it could be.

 

[Timotheos]

Then I chastised him for allowing me to misquote scripture so badly...

Yes, for a while there I couldn't understand why you were arguing like a infernalist. You really had me believing that you thought the devil was immortal. I'm very used to perfectly poor arguments from the other side.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes, for a while there I couldn't understand why you were arguing like a infernalist. You really had me believing that you thought the devil was immortal. I'm very used to perfectly poor arguments from the other side.

I was trying to point out how damaging that assumption was if unchecked. Also hoping that I might be able to get a few Infernalists to pay attention since I hadn't seen any of them state that assumption that they had been making all along. If the devil is immortal than, biblically, Eternal Conscious Torment is true along with all the terrible implications that might suggest about God's character.

 

[ok doser]

.... all the terrible implications that might suggest about God's character.

what this all comes down to is the fact that you (and timmy) are struggling to force your concept of goodness onto God


i look forward to mocking you when you attempt to explain yourselves when you stand before the Judgment throne and tell God He's wrong :darwinsm:

 

[Ben Masada]

[emoji33][emoji85][emoji106]

Nameless, you told me in the beginning that you grew up Jewish. I expected you to understand that "Hell" according to Judaism is called Sheol aka the grave and that we all are heading into it. As I am concerned, when a poster answers with "simanim" as you used above, it is either because he or she did not understand or finds the point ridiculous. What was the case here, do you want to discuss the issue?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Nameless, you told me in the beginning that you grew up Jewish. I expected you to understand that "Hell" according to Judaism is called Sheol aka the grave and that we all are heading into it. As I am concerned, when a poster answers with "simanim" as you used above, it is either because he or she did not understand or finds the point ridiculous. What was the case here, do you want to discuss the issue?

I must have mistyped .... Could you please help me find the quote? In the end.. I agree with Sheol.

Not eternal torment. If you read my other posts this becomes apparent...

This person was knocking the heathen view of hell.

Oh!!!!!!!! I get it!!!! My emoticons were saying DANG!!!! Tell em Ben...

Sorry, should have used words.

Like as in [emoji85]shy monkey, don't the eternal torment believers get it. [emoji33]you told them.. [emoji106]..... I agree

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Nameless, you told me in the beginning that you grew up Jewish. I expected you to understand that "Hell" according to Judaism is called Sheol aka the grave and that we all are heading into it. As I am concerned, when a poster answers with "simanim" as you used above, it is either because he or she did not understand or finds the point ridiculous. What was the case here, do you want to discuss the issue?

Fixed my post by adding words. I wasn't disagreeing. I should have used words.

I just realized that my use of sarcasm sometimes can mess up my use of sincerity.

 

[Ben Masada]

I must have mistyped .... Could you please help me find the quote? In the end.. I agree with Sheol.

Not eternal torment. If you read my other posts this becomes apparent...

This person was knocking the heathen view of hell.

Oh!!!!!!!! I get it!!!! My emoticons were saying DANG!!!! Tell em Ben...

Sorry, should have used words.

Like as in [emoji85]shy monkey, don't the eternal torment believers get it. [emoji33]you told them.. [emoji106]..... I agree

Your post is found under the number #5263

 

[Ben Masada]

Fixed my post by adding words. I wasn't disagreeing. I should have used words.

I just realized that my use of sarcasm sometimes can mess up my use of sincerity.

You are a good person Nameless. When I go to the Wailing Wall, I'll insert in between the stones a prayer so that the Lord bless Nameless. I live in Ramat Gan but I go every year to Jerusalem just to pray at the Wailing Wall.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

You are a good person Nameless. When I go to the Wailing Wall, I'll insert in between the stones a prayer so that the Lord bless Nameless. I live in Ramat Gan but I go every year to Jerusalem just to pray at the Wailing Wall.

Ben,

I'm beyond words. I could try to be humble, but you have have given me a deep compliment and in placing a prayer for me in the Wailing Wall... A deep honor of honers.

Gratitude Brother!

Mutual Respect as well!