Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Aimiel
Well-known member
Perhaps if you understood Einstein's general relativity theory you would. Space-time is curved. The Bible says that God sits on the 'circle' of the earth. That circle is: time. He is everywhere at everywhen. Before creation, before He began time, He was. He opened time and He will close it.
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
In the beginning, the first time there was time, God called it: "The First Day."
God's Truth
New member
I do not need to understand Einstein's general relativity theory to know God's Truth. God just is.
I just did not see how what you were saying was correct. You said "Being omnipresent precludes both". I do not see how that is what precludes both.
You also said "There's no time or distance with God." I just do not agree. Heaven is God's throne, and earth is his footstool.
Psalm 138:6
Though the LORD is exalted, he looks kindly on the lowly; though lofty, he sees them from afar.
God's Truth
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You are the one adding that it means not to exist anywhere.
Disappearing is about not seeing that person anymore. It does not mean not to exist anywhere.
They live in prison/hell.
Listen more carefully. The scripture tells us that men CANNOT kill our bodies with the spirit. That is proof that the spirit lives on after the death of the body.
Perish does not mean not to exist anywhere.
God's Truth
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You are wrong. The body is dead without the spirit. See James 2:26.
You are confused. The rich man and Lazarus depict men that were living on earth during Jesus’ time on earth.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Your understanding of the fact that God being at any place in space-time always would cause you to understand that God is not subject to time but that time is subject to God, since it is one of His creations.
That's why I suggested that you enlighten yourself on the subject of space-time.
Exactly. His bigger than time and space. He is above space-time while we are subject to space-time. His Ways are higher than ours.
God's Truth
New member
Again, I do not need to study the subject of space-time. Omnipresent means to be in all places at all times. Preclude means to prevent from happening; make impossible. How do you get that because God is everywhere, and in heaven where His throne is, means time and DISTANCE cannot happen?
We know that. I was just wondering why you would say there is no time and distance with God? He is exalted. Our days are like a mist. He is far from the wicked.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, there is no distance to Him, via time or space. He is everywhere and every-when at all times. He is God. His BEING is beyond our understanding. Thinking that He is subject to time and space like we are is our fault for being temporal beings, limited to our space and time.
God's Truth
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I just do not believe there is no distance to Him or time.
As I said before...heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool; and, he is far from the wicked; and our days are as a mist.
Those things that I said are from scripture, and it shows time and distance.
Jason0047
Member
It is true. God is Omni-Temporal and Omnipresent. God exists beyond his creation. Also, what we perceive to be good or moral, God is so much more, too. His ways are higher than our ways. Meaning God is Omni-righteous, too. He is righteous in all His good actions and ways. However, if you believe God punishes someone beyond what the crime fits, then that would be making God out to be immoral and not righteous. Now, I am not saying that all people who believe in eternal torment are trying to make God unrighteous. I am just saying that they are following a teaching or looking at Scripture in an askewed way to defend the traditions of most churches without really thinking about the morality of God's actions.
In other words, God's morality is not inconsistent with Scripture. People only blindly follow what they think the Bible says at face value without really comparing Scripture with Scripture. They would rather be accepted by their church and think the church is without error than to stand out and stand up for the truth of what God's Word actually says. Jesus said we would be persecuted and not accepted.
Now, here is where the rubber meets the road. The ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Proponent cannot explain the justice or righteousness of punishing somebody forever for a finite amount of crimes (not an infinite amount) done against God and man. All they can do is point to the Bible upon their false interpretation of Scripture. In fact, the Conditional View weighs in more in favor with the Bible with words like perish, death, destruction versus those few small handful of verses that supposedly appear to say otherwise.
In other words, the ECT proponent cannot and will not ever be able to explain the morality behind their position. It is just not going to happen. Unless of course you want to follow a God who is unrighteous in his actions or unless you want to be clueless so as to explain the morality of the ECT position.
Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you all.
And please be well.
In other words, God's morality is not inconsistent with Scripture. People only blindly follow what they think the Bible says at face value without really comparing Scripture with Scripture. They would rather be accepted by their church and think the church is without error than to stand out and stand up for the truth of what God's Word actually says. Jesus said we would be persecuted and not accepted.
Now, here is where the rubber meets the road. The ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Proponent cannot explain the justice or righteousness of punishing somebody forever for a finite amount of crimes (not an infinite amount) done against God and man. All they can do is point to the Bible upon their false interpretation of Scripture. In fact, the Conditional View weighs in more in favor with the Bible with words like perish, death, destruction versus those few small handful of verses that supposedly appear to say otherwise.
In other words, the ECT proponent cannot and will not ever be able to explain the morality behind their position. It is just not going to happen. Unless of course you want to follow a God who is unrighteous in his actions or unless you want to be clueless so as to explain the morality of the ECT position.
Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you all.
And please be well.
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good post jason
Aimiel
Well-known member
That is correct. Just as Jesus, Who appeared in the room with the Apostles after they had locked the door, God can step into time at will.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Amen. And, just like He exists above time-space (which is beyond our capability to understand) He also exists ABOVE our moral judgment. Our judgment of Him as immoral (should He condone eternal suffering) is not correct, since we don't have the moral capability to find fault with God in ANY way.
No, it would just mean that we simply don't understand His Righteousness.
Not really:
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
God is Just. He punishes evil-doers. Who are we to question His judgment? He judged the angels the moment they sinned. They stood in His Presence. We walk in darkness, so when we sin He gives us a chance to repent. If we don't then we suffer the same punishment that is given to all sinners: torment of flames, forever.
I believe that God sees us in our sinful state as we are: sinners, deserving punishment. He gives the punishment equally to all who deserve it. No one can argue with His Judgment. If we offend in ONE point, we are guilty of all. God said it and it is true, whether anyone believes Him or not.
I just posted the definition as it is in the dictionary. I didn't add anything.
Disappear? The lost perish, this means they do not stay alive.
I didn't mean "Where do you think dead people live?" I meant "Where in the Bible does it say dead people live?"
You didn't read that verse all the way to the end, it actually does say that body and soul can be destroyed,
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Are you able to see that Matthew 10:28 says that the soul and body CAN be destroyed?
Perish means "suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way." If you think it means to continue to live forever in hell being tortured alive, you need to show an official definition that says this. Perish simply does not mean "continue to live on forever".
The Bible says "Whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH (suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way) but will have eternal life. Why would Jesus tell believers that they can have eternal life if EVERYONE has eternal life? Think about it.
Aimiel,
re: "Whatever."
Does that mean that it is up to the reader to interpret scripture based on whatever their desire is, e.g., the desire to see the unsaved tortured for eternity versus the desire to not see them tortured for eternity?
re: "Have a nice life."
Why thank you, I think I will try to do just that.
re: "Whatever."
Does that mean that it is up to the reader to interpret scripture based on whatever their desire is, e.g., the desire to see the unsaved tortured for eternity versus the desire to not see them tortured for eternity?
re: "Have a nice life."
Why thank you, I think I will try to do just that.
God's Truth
New member
What are you saying? Are you saying we can be offend in one point?
God's Truth
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Show the dictionary definition that says it means not exist anywhere.
Prove that it means they do not exist anywhere.
There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.
The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1). Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40). The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from heaven. Paul says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..."
You missed it again. Listen; a man CAN kill another man…he CANNOT kill his spirit too.
That proves the spirit of a man lives on after the death of his physical body.
You cannot prove that perish means not exist anywhere.
All will be raised to life because of Jesus…the righteous and the wicked.
Aimiel
Well-known member
No, The Bible says so. I'm just in agreement with It.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Actually αιωνιος means something permanent, and it is rarely unlike the word αιων.
Actually, the truth is that the one would be a liability of all. And the reality is Jacob called James didn't say anything that stupid.