Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

Believers can understand God's Omni-Righteousness. How so? Well, the Scriptures say that believers can know God's Judgments because God teaches it to them,

Psalm 119:102
"I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me."

So, if I understand your theory, you have the whole counsel of God and know what He thinks and how He judges on judgment day (which, by the way, has not yet occurred) right?

Yet, you are saying we cannot know the truth on God's righteousness. However, the Scriptures say that a believer will be guided into ALL truth,

John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (cf. John 16:14 KJV, John 16:15 KJV,).

I believe that we can be guided into a relationship with The Spirit of Truth Who, Alone, knows all Truth; but I do not believe that a Christian (any Christian) knows all Truth. He can teach us. I've had many a lesson myself.

For we are to be made into the image of Christ's likeness. Meaning, we are to behave like Jesus and His righteousness. So if we are to behave like Jesus in His judgments, then surely you would agree that a country or state should endorse the unending torture of people who commit a finite amount of crimes, too?

Of course not. God never tells us to torment another soul. Maybe you have a different Bible than I do, but mine has no such thing in it. There are death penalties in mine, but no torment, that I'm aware of. No one is capable of knowing the sins of another such that torment might be applied to the right person.

If I am understanding you correctly here: You are basically trying to say that we can't know God's judgments because we are sinful and unable to judge others because we all stand guilty before God. However, nothing could be further from the truth, though.

I don't see you, for instance, as capable of being made a Judge or Ruler of any kind. You have too many silly ideas in your head.

Second, the Scriptures say we can Judge righteously.

John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

I believe that to mean that we are to look at sinners as if they were ourselves before we were saved. We are to love them into the Kingdom, not holler at them and act like we are holier than they are.

You just believe your wrong view of Scripture and you don't need any moral reason to explain God's judgment as being just or right.

I believe God's judgment of eternal punishment to be just AND right, completely. Why would The Judge of The Universe make poor judgments?

You are basically trying to say that God's judgments are unknowable because we are sinful beings.

Not just because we are 'fallen' beings but also because we are not in the spirit realm and cannot see God.

However, if a person is a true believer, they would be walking uprightly with the Lord and they will be guided into all truth by the Spirit so as to know and defend God's judgments in light of His righteousness or holiness.

It's entirely possible. Jesus proved that. No one except Him has done so as of yet.

In fact, God's goodness can be seen from cover to cover within our Bibles, too. For God does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So if the Lord is going to torture someone in the future forever and ever, then we have to see this type of behavior in God at some other place within His Word, too. However, we do not see anything in God's Word that would even remotely suggest such a dark thing, though.

You're in error. It's in several places and referred to in others.

For God judges fairly.

Amen.

He is not going to punish people beyond what the actual crime requires.

To break the law is to break the whole law, as Scripture says.

In other words, believing in the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) version of God makes Him out to be a monster and not as the good God that we have come to know who is fair and just in all His judgments.

In point of fact: it makes Him Just AND Fair. Rejecting His Son will cause eternal harm to whosoever does so. Unless we apply His Blood to our lives we are lost and on our way to eternal suffering in hell. Scripture says so. You can either believe Scripture and have eternal life or believe whatever you want and have eternal torment. It's up to you. I choose to believe Scripture.

 

[God's Truth]

As They do.Excuse me? Where was I 'corrected'? :duh:

We cannot offend on one point. If we offend on one point, then we do not keep the Royal Law of love your neighbor.

 

[Aimiel]

You're not making any sense.

 

[Jason0047]

So, if I understand your theory, you have the whole counsel of God and know what He thinks and how He judges on judgment day (which, by the way, has not yet occurred) right? I believe that we can be guided into a relationship with The Spirit of Truth Who, Alone, knows all Truth; but I do not believe that a Christian (any Christian) knows all Truth.

What I mean by ALL truth is that God will guide us into all truth that is relevant for the believer in this world, which can only come by His Spirit and His Word. The Spirit and the Word are linked together. We learn and know about God thru His Word and by His Spirit. So if you believe that we cannot know God's righteousness or judgments, I strongly disagree because the Bible says otherwise. For God's righteousness is revealed to us within the pages of the Scriptures by His Spirit.

As for a believer's relationship with God: It is a relationship with a God of love and true justice (that we can explain to others plainly). For a believer should be able to explain the Judgments of God with no trouble. To say that we cannot explain God's justice and how it is fair (When it doesn't sound fair) is making God out to be the author of confusion.

He can teach us. I've had many a lesson myself. Of course not. God never tells us to torment another soul. Maybe you have a different Bible than I do, but mine has no such thing in it.

I never said that believers could torture others. I was referring to the Law of the land which is ordained by God. I set forth the example because Jesus many times had illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples (i.e. parables). I believe my example taken from Romans refutes your position.

There are death penalties in mine, but no torment, that I'm aware of. No one is capable of knowing the sins of another such that torment might be applied to the right person.

Think about this for a second. If a person dies at a very young age having rejecting Jesus and only committed a small handful of sins within one month, you are saying that they deserve eternal punishment or torment forever and ever? This is inconsistent with the justice we see in our real world today. In fact, God shows his justice and mercy thru the Laws of a nation within the real world as a reflection of the one in the afterlife. For when a person breaks a law in the real world, they are guilty for breaking that one law.

James 2:10 is in context to the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (See James 2:8). Besides, if you really are guilty in breaking all of the Law (Meaning, ALL Laws in general), then if someone breaks one Law, they are guilty of taking words out of the prophecy of this book (Which means their name is taken out of the Lamb's Book of Life). It also means that they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit which cannot be forgiven, too.

I don't see you, for instance, as capable of being made a Judge or Ruler of any kind. You have too many silly ideas in your head.I believe that to mean that we are to look at sinners as if they were ourselves before we were saved. We are to love them into the Kingdom, not holler at them and act like we are holier than they are.I believe God's judgment of eternal punishment to be just AND right, completely.

When you live holy, you are loving and abiding with God (Who is love itself), which will spill over into your life onto other people. However, you cannot sin against God and then turn around and act like you love your neighbor. For salvation, which is in abiding with Jesus Christ will result in one living holy and fruitful for God. It is not a mental acknowledgment type belief alone with no changed life (Whereby you still remain in your sins). A person must repent of their sins as a part of having a relationship with the Lord.

Why would The Judge of The Universe make poor judgments?

I have no problem explaining the morality of God's Judgments as they are described in the Bible. However, you have been unable to explain the morality behind the judgments involving your god.

Not just because we are 'fallen' beings but also because we are not in the spirit realm and cannot see God.

I believe God communicates everything we need to know about God's goodness and justice within His Word. I do not believe God has anything to hide in regards to how His justice is fair and good when He punishes the wicked. Why would He need to hide in explaining His good Judgment? The fact that you cannot explain your position morally using Scripture shows it's weakness. Especially seeing it is based upon just a few verses taken out of context (While ignoring a whole bunch of other verses that talk about how the wicked will perish, die, and or be destroyed). For please tell me how God is loving in torturing people forever for a finite amount of crimes? Please tell me how that is a loving form of punishment?

It's entirely possible. Jesus proved that. No one except Him has done so as of yet.You're in error. It's in several places and referred to in others.

Where's the Scripture?

Rejecting His Son will cause eternal harm to whosoever does so. Unless we apply His Blood to our lives we are lost and on our way to eternal suffering in hell. Scripture says so. You can either believe Scripture and have eternal life or believe whatever you want and have eternal torment.

Believing the Lake of Fire is eternal or conditional is not a salvation issue. But I believe it can be if a person believes God takes pleasure in torturing the wicked.

It's up to you. I choose to believe Scripture.

No. You choose to believe your own interpretation of Scripture, dear sir. For the evidence of Scripture is against you and not for you.

For the Traditional Viewpoints requires the most spiritualization (or metaphorical interpretation) of scripture, with words such as:

perish
death
die
destruction
consumed by fire
second death
carcases

In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the traditional viewpoint.

Conditional Viewpoints has the least amount of spiritualization of figurative expressions within scripture, such as:

their worm will not die
the smoke of their torment will go up forever (Isaiah 34:10 Which also describes a place)
unquenchable fire

In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the conditional viewpoint.

So you see; When we compare Scripture, the evidence weighs in favor of Conditionalism and not ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).

 

[God's Truth]

You're not making any sense.

Give me a chance to try again.

James is speaking of the Royal Law. What is the Royal Law in which James speaks? It is the law that says, "Love your neighbor as yourself".

That is the Royal Law.

The whole Bible is a teaching on HOW to love.

When God says do not commit adultery.

Do not steal. Do not murder...all those things are telling us what not to do if we are to love.

Now, the Royal Law is for us to love our neighbor as ourselves. How do we do that? We love our neighbor by not causing them any harm.

So then, we obey God by not bearing false witness against our neighbor. We obey God and do not steal from our neighbor. We obey and do not kill our neighbors. However, when someone messes up at one point and commits adultery with their neighbor's wife....if you mess up at one point---then you are guilty of NOT obeying the Royal Law of Love your neighbor as yourself.

Again, the whole Bible is a teaching on HOW TO LOVE. Do not steal, do not bear false witness... That is about how to love. If you are doing ANY of those things against your neighbor---then you are NOT loving your neighbor.

Jesus says the whole Law and the Prophets is summed up in these two Commandments."

The first and greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

 

[Aimiel]

What I mean by ALL truth is that God will guide us into all truth that is relevant for the believer in this world, which can only come by His Spirit and His Word.

Right... but I would never presume to judge God or to question His ability to mete out His Judgment.

So if you believe that we cannot know God's righteousness or judgments, I strongly disagree because the Bible says otherwise.

No, it doesn't say, anywhere in The Holy Scriptures, that any man is given God's Judgment to judge others with. He is The Only Judge of men's lives and we simply have the ability to judge their crimes or petty grievances.

As for a believer's relationship with God: It is a relationship with a God of love and true justice (that we can explain to others plainly). For a believer should be able to explain the Judgments of God with no trouble. To say that we cannot explain God's justice and how it is fair (When it doesn't sound fair) is making God out to be the author of confusion.

No, I'd say you're the one who is confused, since you seem to not understand His Word, which is quite clear on the matter. You miss the mark, but then try to place that on me instead of examining yourself on the matter.

I have no problem explaining the morality of God's Judgments as they are described in the Bible. However, you have been unable to explain the morality behind the judgments involving your god.

I don't presume to know what He thinks or how His Mind operates. His ways are higher than mine.

I believe God communicates everything we need to know about God's goodness and justice within His Word.

You're grossly mistaken.

I do not believe God has anything to hide in regards to how His justice is fair and good when He punishes the wicked.

True. That's why He told us about hell and the Lake of Fire.

The fact that you cannot explain your position morally using Scripture shows it's weakness.

No, the fact that you think you know everything about your god shows that you don't.

Believing the Lake of Fire is eternal or conditional is not a salvation issue. But I believe it can be if a person believes God takes pleasure in torturing the wicked.

That's facetious. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

So you see; When we compare Scripture, the evidence weighs in favor of Conditionalism and not ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).

I see it just the opposite, even after having studied lo these 46 years of my young Christianity. I'm 58 and was saved at 12.

 

[Aimiel]

Give me a chance to try again.

James is speaking of the Royal Law. What is the Royal Law in which James speaks? It is the law that says, "Love your neighbor as yourself".

That is the Royal Law.

The whole Bible is a teaching on HOW to love.

When God says do not commit adultery.

Do not steal. Do not murder...all those things are telling us what not to do if we are to love.

Now, the Royal Law is for us to love our neighbor as ourselves. How do we do that? We love our neighbor by not causing them any harm.

So then, we obey God by not bearing false witness against our neighbor. We obey God and do not steal from our neighbor. We obey and do not kill our neighbors. However, when someone messes up at one point and commits adultery with their neighbor's wife....if you mess up at one point---then you are guilty of NOT obeying the Royal Law of Love your neighbor as yourself.

Again, the whole Bible is a teaching on HOW TO LOVE. Do not steal, do not bear false witness... That is about how to love. If you are doing ANY of those things against your neighbor---then you are NOT loving your neighbor.

Jesus says the whole Law and the Prophets is summed up in these two Commandments."

The first and greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Your point being... ?

 

[God's Truth]

Your point being... ?

YOU said the Bible says WE CAN OFFEND on one point.

That is incorrect.

 

[Jason0047]

Right... but I would never presume to judge God or to question His ability to mete out His Judgment.

I am not questioning God's judgment within the Bible because the Scriptures support the Conditional View. It is only with your version of god I have a problem with in regards to Judgment. My God is clear and easy to understand in regards to Judgment. Your God is an author of confusion when it comes to explaining God's justice. I am sorry, my friend. But that is just how I see it.

No, it doesn't say, anywhere in The Holy Scriptures, that any man is given God's Judgment to judge others with.

Psalm 119:102
"I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me."

Whose Judgments? Who taught us?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

The saints will Judge who?

Matthew 19:28
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Who is Judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Daniel 7:22
"Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Judgment was given to who?

Revelation 2:26-27
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

Power over the nations will be given to who?

He is The Only Judge of men's lives and we simply have the ability to judge their crimes or petty grievances.

Yes, Christ (God Almighty) is the ultimate Judge. Yet as Jesus said, "And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me." In other words, Jesus was not alone in His Judgment because He is a part of the second person of the Godhead just as we are not alone because Christ (God) lives within us, helping us to judge, as well. Granted, we are commanded to love all people. But in love: We can judge sins so as to lead people to repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (So as to be saved); And one day we will judge the world and angels.

No, I'd say you're the one who is confused, since you seem to not understand His Word, which is quite clear on the matter. You miss the mark, but then try to place that on me instead of examining yourself on the matter.

I used to believe in ECT. So I know exactly what it is like to hold to your particular position and to see things from your perspective. In fact, I remember coming up with weak hypothetical excuses in trying to defend it.

I don't presume to know what He thinks or how His Mind operates. His ways are higher than mine. You're grossly mistaken.

And the context of Isaiah 55:8 is,

Isaiah 55:7
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

In other words, God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts is in context to the unrighteous man or the wicked; And I believe it is a dangerous line to stand upon when one indirectly implies that God is capable of judging unfairly by punishing the wicked beyond the types of crimes they have committed without a good explanation.

No, the fact that you think you know everything about your god shows that you don't.That's facetious. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. I see it just the opposite, even after having studied lo these 46 years of my young Christianity. I'm 58 and was saved at 12.

Age or years of service has nothing to do with whether or not you are correct on a particular Biblical doctrine or not. In fact, on the contrary, it was young Elihu who had given Job the most sound advice. It was Stephen who had revealed the truth of the Scriptures that upset the well learned Sanhedrin whereby they stoned him to death.

In fact, if you are truly on the level in the defense of the truth, then you will have no problem praying one more time on whether ECT is Biblical or not. In other words, ask the Lord what He thinks on this topic (Jeremiah 33:3); And don't settle for a quick answer that you would prefer, either. Truly ask with the intent that you may be wrong or that you would like an answer about his justice in regards to the Lake of Fire. Ask Him to show you verses. Keep praying about it until you feel it is God talking to you about it.

 

[Aimiel]

YOU said the Bible says WE CAN OFFEND on one point.

That is incorrect.

REALLY don't get it. You're beating around the bush. You can offend. Anyone can fall. Anyone. OSAS is a myth. Is that what you wanted to get me to say?

The Bible says that if anyone keeps the whole law but offends in one point they are guilty of all (the law).

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Aimiel]

I am not questioning God's judgment...

Yes, you are.

I used to believe in ECT. So I know exactly what it is like to hold to your particular position and to see things from your perspective.

Sorry, but you don't even know me, much less my perspective.

Age or years of service has nothing to do with whether or not you are correct on a particular Biblical doctrine or not.

So your parents and your pastor have never taught you to respect your elders. Shame on them.

Keep praying about it until you feel it is God talking to you about it.

I don't have to 'feel' that God is talking. He is not a stranger to me. :thumb:

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, you are.

I disagree. For I don't believe your version of God is the God of the Bible. Why? Well, you said that God can directly create evil. This does not work because a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (See Matthew chapter 7).

http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/7.htm

On top of that, you believe God can punish people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes and it is not our place to question such a Judgment (Even if we cannot explain it morally). However, even Abraham knew that God was was going to resurrect his son when he was commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. God did not just tell him to kill his son without letting Abraham know that his son was going to be okay. For God wanted to let Abraham know that He was still a good God.

For the Lord my God is a good God and He is not going to ask me to do anything bad and He is not going to do any type of evil or injustice Himself. God's goodness and judgments are knowable and easy to understand. Yet, you are saying they are not so as to defend a created doctrine that is in line with the thinking of Greek philosophers such Socrates and Plato. For they believed the soul was immortal just as most ECT proponents believe.

Sorry, but you don't even know me, much less my perspective.

Your personality and life has nothing to do with what the Word of God says on this topic. Oh, and I do know your perspective on ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) because I used to believe it and defend it.

So your parents and your pastor have never taught you to respect your elders. Shame on them.

Telling you the truth in God's Word has nothing to do with respecting one's elders. If that was the case, then Elihu couldn't have given spiritual advice to Job; And Stephen couldn't have spoken the truth of the Scriptures to the Sanhedrin.

I don't have to 'feel' that God is talking. He is not a stranger to me.

What I am suggesting is that you pray to the Lord again on this topic. Ask Him one more time if ECT is true or not. For surely it does not hurt to keep asking the Lord something. You have nothing to lose by asking and everything to gain. I have asked God numerous times on various topics I think I know 100% as true so as to verify I am on the right path and so as to show others that I am not afraid to continually seek the truth with the Lord in the here and now. Are you willing to admit you are wrong? Are you willing to continually ask if you are on the right path (even when you think you are right)?

 

[God's Truth]

WE CANNOT OFFEND on one point without being guilty of breaking the whole Royal Law of “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

REALLY don't get it. You're beating around the bush.

You really do not get it, and you have been beating around the bush.

WE CANNOT OFFEND on one point without being guilty of breaking the whole Royal Law of “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

You can offend. Anyone can fall. Anyone. OSAS is a myth. Is that what you wanted to get me to say?

That is not what I was trying to get you to say.

WE CANNOT OFFEND on one point without being guilty of breaking the whole Royal Law of “Love your neighbor as yourself”.
The Bible says that if anyone keeps the whole law but offends in one point they are guilty of all (the law).

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

WE CANNOT OFFEND on one point without being guilty of breaking the whole Royal Law of “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

You kept saying we could offend. You do not say what the Bible says.

 

[Aimiel]

I disagree.

Have you ever been diagnosed for Opposition Disorder?

For I don't believe your version of God is the God of the Bible.

That's okay, for I would never presume to say such of yours. I do pray that God might open your eyes, though.

Why? Well, you said that God can directly create evil.

I only said it after God did, I simply believe Him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

He not only said, "I," three different times in this verse but stated EXACTLY Whom He is (The Lord). He created evil, whether you believe Him or not. I choose to believe every Word He says.

This does not work because a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (See Matthew chapter 7).

Again: you're judging God, and due to your trying to hold Him to your judgment you're discounting His Word and believing the version you make up in your head.

On top of that, you believe God can punish people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes and it is not our place to question such a Judgment (Even if we cannot explain it morally).

It's not my place to defend God or to explain His Actions.

However, even Abraham knew that God was was going to resurrect his son when he was commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Apples don't compare to oranges. No one in hell can even cross into Heaven, nor can those in Heaven cross into hell. Believing otherwise is a fool's errand.

God did not just tell him to kill his son without letting Abraham know that his son was going to be okay.

Correct. God knew Abraham's heart and knew that the test would teach Abraham something great about his own faith.

For God wanted to let Abraham know that He was still a good God.

He knew, it was the test that made it real in his thinking.

God's goodness and judgments are knowable and easy to understand. Yet, you are saying they are not so as to defend a created doctrine that is in line with the thinking of Greek philosophers such Socrates and Plato. For they believed the soul was immortal just as most ECT proponents believe.

How then do you imagine God awakening those who die only to put them to death (non-existence) forever? It simply makes no sense at all. If true it's at least a horrible waste of resources. God doesn't work like that.

I do know your perspective on ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) because I used to believe it and defend it.

No, you know your own. No one knows another's experiences. Not in this life, anyway. We'll have time to share those (as well as much more) in Heaven. Until then all we have are standard methods of communication, such as oral and written statements; since mind-reading and projecting simply don't work.

Telling you the truth in God's Word has nothing to do with respecting one's elders.

Your 'interpretation' of Truth isn't Truth. It's bunk. Plain and simple. You're projecting your beliefs onto God. They don't fit. He can't be put in a bottle. He doesn't fit in a box. He won't wear your shoes and doesn't subscribe to your theology. You need to search Him out with your whole heart before you find Him. I believe all that you have done is mentally ascend to His Word (the parts you like) and not sought His Insight into what The Holy Scriptures say. Pray and ask Him to show you how to find Him.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[Aimiel]

You do not say what the Bible says.

I must be typing in Chinese. I posted the verse after having cut and pasted it from The Bible. I do not say what you think I say. You're on a little bunny-trail that is off-topic and I have no idea what you're on about. Sorry.

 

[God's Truth]

I must be typing in Chinese. I posted the verse after having cut and pasted it from The Bible. I do not say what you think I say. You're on a little bunny-trail that is off-topic and I have no idea what you're on about. Sorry.

You have something wrong with your hearing.

The scripture is NOT telling us we can offend on one point.

YOU keep saying we can.

How much plainer does it have to be?

 

[Jason0047]

Have you ever been diagnosed for Opposition Disorder?

Well, there are many many times that I do agree with people. So no.

That's okay, for I would never presume to say such of yours.

You said yourself that we do not worship the same God. And I agree. I believe the God of the Bible did not directly create evil because there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5).

I do pray that God might open your eyes, though.

Pray to see what? That God can create evil? Sorry, I believe God is good and not evil. For to create evil is to be evil.

For example: If you create something evil that would cause evil upon other people, does that make you good or evil?

It would make you evil because you intentionally created something evil with the intent on doing evil upon others.

I only said it after God did, I simply believe Him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

He not only said, "I," three different times in this verse but stated EXACTLY Whom He is (The Lord). He created evil, whether you believe Him or not. I choose to believe every Word He says.

No, you are wrongfully trying to force the old English word "evil" from the 1600's as it having the same meaning as the word "evil" today. But we both know that words change with time.

Now, I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God, but even I realize that the Modern Translations render this word more accurately for our modern day understanding of that word, though.

Isaiah 45:7 NIV
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Isaiah 45:7 NLT
"I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things."

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
"I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Isaiah 45:7 NASB
"The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

Again: you're judging God, and due to your trying to hold Him to your judgment you're discounting His Word and believing the version you make up in your head.It's not my place to defend God or to explain His Actions.

No, I am judging your false version of God that cannot be properly explained in the Scriptures. Your God is a mystery who cannot be explained. The God of the Bible (and His Judgments) is easily understood within the Scriptures.

Apples don't compare to oranges. No one in hell can even cross into Heaven, nor can those in Heaven cross into hell. Believing otherwise is a fool's errand.

Where in the world did I ever imply or say such a thing?

Correct. God knew Abraham's heart and knew that the test would teach Abraham something great about his own faith.He knew, it was the test that made it real in his thinking.How then do you imagine God awakening those who die only to put them to death (non-existence) forever? It simply makes no sense at all. If true it's at least a horrible waste of resources. God doesn't work like that.

I am not an Annihilationist. I am a Conditionalist.

There are several different types of Conditionalists. Some believe that the wicked go to Hell and others believe everyone soul sleeps. I believe in a real Hell. I believe it is an intermediate place until the Judgment. However, all of them agree (Including myself) that the Lake of Fire is a place where the wicked will eventually perish.

Annihilationist believes that the wicked will perish immediately after they die. I don't believe that. According to Scripture, I believe that the Rich-man went to Hell. However, I do not believe he was tortured in the flame, though. I believe he was tormented by a flame (just as Scripture says). What do I mean? Well,

Here is my view on the real story of Lazarus & the Rich-Man:

Spoiler

Hell is real, but it is not a torture chamber. It is a place of torment as the Bible says it is.

In Luke 16:19-31: What many fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me) (Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV). So it was the heat of the flame that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out.

In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.

Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine Abraham pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. From Abraham's bosom: Agraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.

In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

No, you know your own. No one knows another's experiences. Not in this life, anyway. We'll have time to share those (as well as much more) in Heaven. Until then all we have are standard methods of communication, such as oral and written statements; since mind-reading and projecting simply don't work.Your 'interpretation' of Truth isn't Truth. It's bunk. Plain and simple. You're projecting your beliefs onto God. They don't fit. He can't be put in a bottle. He doesn't fit in a box. He won't wear your shoes and doesn't subscribe to your theology. You need to search Him out with your whole heart before you find Him. I believe all that you have done is mentally ascend to His Word (the parts you like) and not sought His Insight into what The Holy Scriptures say. Pray and ask Him to show you how to find Him.

First, personal experiences with God's Word is done by Revelation by the Spirit in our walk with God. However, the foundation of our walk with God is not just in our experiences alone. They are always founded upon God's Word. So.... what kind of experiences with God (Which is founded on God's Word) can you cite so as to support your interpretation of ECT? Do you have any?

Second, you believe that your interpretation is the right view of Scripture and mine is the wrong view. However, I believe the exact opposite of what you believe. So everything you just said above is exactly what I feel you are doing with God's Word. I believe you are not being honest with your interpretation of God's Word by using old out dated words in the KJV and by ignoring Modern Translations when it comes to Isaiah 45:7. As for Conditionalism: I believe you are ignoring the majority of Scriptural evidence that favors the Conditional view of Gehenna, too. All because you are comfortable with a teaching that you have known all your life. For wouldn't it be a big blow to your pride if you were wrong? I know I have no trouble in admitting when I am wrong on theology or an interpretation of Scripture. Can you say the same?

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[Aimiel]

Well, there are many many times that I do agree with people. So no.

My diagnosis stands.

You said yourself that we do not worship the same God. And I agree. I believe the God of the Bible did not directly create evil because there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5).

Well, The God Who inspired the words, "I create evil," which appear in my Bible, did. He said He did. Whether you believe in Him or not He still said it.

Pray to see what? That God can create evil? Sorry, I believe God is good and not evil. For to create evil is to be evil.

Again: you're applying your logic to God and thinking that you might judge Him.

No, you are wrongfully trying to force the old English word "evil" from the 1600's as it having the same meaning as the word "evil" today. But we both know that words change with time.

Only if we allow evil men to seduce us into believing that white is black and black is white. :duh:

 

[Jason0047]

My diagnosis stands.

This is a perfect example of you seeing only what you want to see. You can look at my previous posts and check out the truth for yourself that I have agreed with other people. But if you only want to see what you desire to see, then truth doesn't really matter.

Well, The God Who inspired the words, "I create evil," which appear in my Bible, did. He said He did. Whether you believe in Him or not He still said it.Again: you're applying your logic to God and thinking that you might judge Him.Only if we allow evil men to seduce us into believing that white is black and black is white.

So... are you trying to say that words don't change with the passage of time?

 

[Aimiel]

I'm trying to say that you don't consider Truth, merely what you see as truth gives you what you want to see.