Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Jason0047]

I'm trying to say that you don't consider Truth, merely what you see as truth gives you what you want to see.

I am glad your words are not the standard of Truth. I place my trust in the Bible just as you will no doubt say you do the same, as well. The key is if one is interpreting the Bible correctly. We know words change with the passage of time. This would hold true for the word "evil." If you were to look at how the word "evil" was used in the 1600's, you would realize that this word was not limited in meaning as it is today. For no doubt your KJV uses language from the 1600s. Don't you think you should get a KJV dictionary or something? For do people speak in thee's and thou's commonly today?

 

[Aimiel]

I am glad your words are not the standard of Truth. I place my trust in the Bible just as you will no doubt say you do the same, as well. The key is if one is interpreting the Bible correctly.

When reading Scripture the simplest understanding is best and often men of understanding will turn from it until they find their own. I'd much rather stick with what is printed and what seems straightforward. Avoiding the Scriptures that speak of eternal conscious torment doesn't sound inviting to me. Neither does re-defining the word, "Evil."

 

[Jason0047]

It's not about re-defining the word "evil." It's about ignoring how that word was used back in the 1600's and then applying the modern day meaning of it so as to attack the good character of God.

 

[God's Truth]

Please make it stop.

 

[Aimiel]

It's not about re-defining the word "evil." It's about ignoring how that word was used back in the 1600's and then applying the modern day meaning of it so as to attack the good character of God.

He said that He created darkness, too... aren't you going to re-define that, too? :duh:

 

[Jason0047]

He said that He created darkness, too... aren't you going to re-define that, too?

Let's look again at the verse for context, shall we?

In Isaiah 45:7,
What is the opposite of Light?
Darkness. This sets a standard for the verse. It is showing us a comparison between the opposites of things that God created.

Now, another part of the verse says, "I make peace,"

What is the opposite of peace?
It's war or calamity or misfortune. Something that is the exact polar opposite of peace. Yet, you are going against the standard of what the verse says and are ignoring that words change with the passage of time in this instance.

Yet, for some strange reason you acknowledged that words change with the passage of time. So if this is true, then you at least owe it to yourself to look at the word "evil" at an online Etymology dictionary to see what it says.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=evil&allowed_in_frame=0

or maybe look at the online KJV dictionary for this word,

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/evil.html

or maybe look at the dictionary for this word,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil?s=t

or maybe look at a Bible concordance,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7451&t=KJV

or maybe look at some other translations for the verse,

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm

Or maybe do a cross references search on Isaiah 45:7,

http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/

or maybe you should read some commentaries on this verse?

Why do I say this? Because it will all lead you to the same conclusion that the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is not speaking of evil in the moral sense but in a natural way as in meaning misfortune or calamity.

For God is not the author of confusion. He wants you to think logically and to understand Him. Does it make sense that God can directly create moral evil and yet it does not magically make him evil somehow? Can you create evil things and still be good? Can you explain that? Can you demonstrate a real world example of how you can create evil and yet still be good? I would like to know how that works.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Let's look again at the verse for context, shall we?

In Isaiah 45:7,
What is the opposite of Light?
Darkness. This sets a standard for the verse. It is showing us a comparison between the opposites of things that God created.

Now, another part of the verse says, "I make peace,"

What is the opposite of peace?
It's war or calamity or misfortune. Something that is the exact polar opposite of peace. Yet, you are going against the standard of what the verse says and are ignoring that words change with the passage of time in this instance.

Yet, for some strange reason you acknowledged that words change with the passage of time. So if this is true, then you at least owe it to yourself to look at the word "evil" at an online Etymology dictionary to see what it says.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=evil&allowed_in_frame=0

or maybe look at the online KJV dictionary for this word,

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/evil.html

or maybe look at the dictionary for this word,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil?s=t

or maybe look at a Bible concordance,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7451&t=KJV

or maybe look at some other translations for the verse,

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm

Or maybe do a cross references search on Isaiah 45:7,

http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/

or maybe you should read some commentaries on this verse?

Why do I say this? Because it will all lead you to the same conclusion that the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is not speaking of evil in the moral sense but in a natural way as in meaning misfortune or calamity.

For God is not the author of confusion. He wants you to think logically and to understand Him. Does it make sense that God can directly create moral evil and yet it does not magically make him evil somehow? Can you create evil things and still be good? Can you explain that? Can you demonstrate a real world example of how you can create evil and yet still be good? I would like to know how that works.

Dear Jason0047,

No, God is not the author of confusion. You can think any thing you like. A bricklayer can lay bricks without having any bricks or mortar within him in any way at all. It is the same with God. I'm not saying there is evil in God. I would never say that. And there is no reason to look for another word besides evil. If you want to call it the 'opposite of His ways,' than do it. See John 1:3, "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." Evil did not CREATE itself. Yes, it is the opposite of Good, and it also allows for Free Choice. For without it, there is No Free Choice. Perhaps some of the angels were thinking about the fact that they did not like to keep all of the ways God wanted them to. Like not have sex. That's my best guess. I'm not saying He created evil at the same time that He created peace. I'm saying that He created evil as an alternative to Himself, therefore not forcing anything on anybody. We'll call it, He made 'option.'

Michael

:cloud9:




Dear Jason0047,

Just forget it. I'm tired of getting into people's interpretation wars. Believe what you want. I do consider you a friend regardless. I hope the feeling is mutual.

In Christ's Love And Peace,

Michael

 

[Jason0047]

It's perfectly understandable Michael. I do consider you to be a respectful and caring person of whom I am honored to know online. We need more kind and loving people these days. Especially those who will stand up for the truth in love.

Anyways, I believe God indirectly created evil but I do not believe God directly created evil, though.

God indirectly created evil by the fact that He made free will beings who had the capacity to choose good or evil (with them being responsible for their own actions). God did not create Adam and Lucifer as evil beings or to do evil things and nor did he design them to do evil from the moment of their creation. For there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). Nor did God influence them in any way so as to do evil, either. For the Scriptures say,

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1:13-14).

If God were to directly create evil, he would have had to make beings that were already sinful and or influence them so as to sin or do evil as if that was his intention. But this was not the case. When Adam and Eve sinned against God, He was not happy with them. If it was God's plan for them to sin, then there would be nothing to be upset about. God is holy and He is not capable of doing anything sinful. Creating something evil would make one to be evil. It's a basic logical deduction. For if a person intentionally created a robot that kills people (Which was a part of their goal), then that person would be responsible for the evil that it does and they would be evil. For if any being creates evil or does evil, then they are evil. There is no doubt about such a fact.

Isaiah 45:7 contrasts Light with Darkness. Darkness is the opposite of Light. Then it contrasts peace with the word evil. This is not "evil" in a moral sense but in a natural sense. For what is the opposite of peace? Evil? No. The opposite of peace is war, calamity, misfortune, chaos. Now, I am all for a literal reading of Scripture. But we have to realize that in some cases that words change with the passage of time. We have to realize that the King James Bible used Old English and not Modern English. For if one were to look at a Dictionary, Bible Concordance, compare translations, etc., they would see that the word "evil" is not defined only in the moral sense. It has multiple meanings.

 

[chrysostom]

God indirectly created evil by the fact that He made free will beings who had the capacity to choose good or evil

it is more correct to say God allowed evil actions to occur when he created our free will

evil in itself does not exist

 

[Jason0047]

God knew before creating Adam and Lucifer that they were going to do sin and evil because God is Omniscient and eternal. God knows everything and is outside our linear form of time. Adam and Lucifer would not exist unless God created them. So God had to create them in some form or fashion. He did not create them as evil or to do evil as if that was their only choice from the start of their creation. However, God had to have brought these beings into existence in some way because they are beings created by Him. For if God decided not to create free will beings that could do evil, then evil would not exist. For God had to allow them with the capacity to do evil in order for evil to exist. It's not that God approved or designed them to specifically to do evil. It was Adam and Lucifer's choice to either choose good or evil.

Saying that God indirectly created evil does not mean that God made beings to specifically do evil as if that was their only goal from the spark of their creation.

For example: The men who helped to progress the invention of the car can say that they indirectly created all traffic accidents. For these accidents would not have occurred without their invention. This does not mean that the men who helped to progress the invention of the car intentionally created the car to get into traffic accidents as a part of their goal or plan, though. It does not mean they are responsible for these accidents either. Which means they did not directly create traffic accidents. However, we also have to realize that there would be no traffic accidents if these men did not help to bring the car into existence, though.

Who were the men who helped to invent the car?

http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html

As for the first wheeled vehicle: Well, such a thing is unknown. Such an invention could have existed before the Flood or shortly after it.

However, hopefully this illustration should help clarify my point. For being an indirect author or creator of something does not mean they directly created it as if that was a part of their plan or goal. For God knew that creating free willed beings who were initially good would eventually result in the existence of evil. It's not that God wanted man to do evil. God wanted man to do good. But God also realizes that the evil of man would not exist if God did not create man with the capacity to do so, though. Again, this in no way means God created evil. Evil is something that man chose. Evil is a product of man's choice. And man will be responsible for the evil that He does; And one day all forms of evil will be eradicated or destroyed.

 

[Aimiel]

I still believe God... even when He says He creates evil. Sometimes one's brain is in the way of understanding. His Word is Truth and often we misread It by ignorance. We reason away His Truth by applying our reasoning instead of just accepting what He has said.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[RCLady]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

To deny the eternity of Hell......the eternal torment of the damned is no less a denial of the Word of God..........


The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call to mind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments.... Catholic Encyclopedia on Hell

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I still believe God... even when He says He creates evil. Sometimes one's brain is in the way of understanding. His Word is Truth and often we misread It by ignorance. We reason away His Truth by applying our reasoning instead of just accepting what He has said.

Posted from the TOL App!

You reason wrongly about what God has said.

LA

 

[Jason0047]

I still believe God... even when He says He creates evil. Sometimes one's brain is in the way of understanding. His Word is Truth and often we misread It by ignorance. We reason away His Truth by applying our reasoning instead of just accepting what He has said.

By that line of logic, someone could say Jesus is an actual physical door with hinges because Jesus says, "I am the door" (John 10:9). By that line of reason, then someone could say that Jesus was into cannibalism and vampirism because Jesus said to others, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life:..." (John 6:54). But we know these things are just not so because God gave us a brain to think logically about things.

 

[Jason0047]

To deny the eternity of Hell......the eternal torment of the damned is no less a denial of the Word of God..........


The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call to mind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments.... Catholic Encyclopedia on Hell

I can easily prove the Conditional View of Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) to you using Scripture. However, before I do that, I want you to first think logically about this for a second. Put down your Bible for a moment and your church teachings and think with your heart and your mind. Okay, I want you to explain to me how God is able to punish the wicked for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes done against God and others. Can you explain how torturing someone forever and ever and ever in fire is just and fair for a short life span of crimes? Can you explain how that is loving and good of God? I don't think you can do it. You will either say that we cannot know the justice of God or you will say that we are sinning against an eternal God and therefore the punishment must be eternal. But did we really sin against God in eternity? Is there a verse that says that when we sin against God, we are sinning against Him eternally? Does it still sound like a fair and just punishment? Would you torture someone in fire for as long as they could live if they did a small amount of crimes against you? How much more loving and just is God than we are?

Think about it.

 

[rstrats]

RCLady,

re: "The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell."

I'm not aware of any scripture that actually teaches - except for the devil and possibly the beast and false prophet, depending on the version/ translation - that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured for eternity. What do you have in mind?

 

[Aimiel]

You reason wrongly about what God has said.

LA

You don't seem to understand The Holy Scriptures. Keep reading. One day you shall. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

By that line of logic, someone could say Jesus is an actual physical door with hinges because Jesus says, "I am the door" (John 10:9). By that line of reason, then someone could say that Jesus was into cannibalism and vampirism because Jesus said to others, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life:..." (John 6:54). But we know these things are just not so because God gave us a brain to think logically about things.

I don't believe He was lying. I believe that when I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death that at the end I will go through a doorway and look at it and realize that the door actually is God. He not only made a way for me, He actually IS The Way. He doesn't just tell the truth, He IS The Truth. He doesn't just give me eternal life, He IS Eternal Life.

 

[Timotheos]

To deny the eternity of Hell......the eternal torment of the damned is no less a denial of the Word of God..........

That's a little harsh, don't you think?

Bible explicitly says that the lost will perish, and Jesus explicitly says "fear the one who can destroy BOTH BODY AND SOUL in Hell".

Read through the thread, your objections have been addressed many times before.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't believe He was lying. I believe that when I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death that at the end I will go through a doorway and look at it and realize that the door actually is God.

These are metaphors. So I don't believe God was lying either in these passages. I believe he was speaking metaphorically that He is a door. God is not literally a door with hinges. So if someone argued that He was an actual real physical literal door with hinges, would you agree with them? For this is the same line of logic and reason you use in Isaiah 45:7 when you believe you should just look at a word and just believe it face value without thinking (If that word has another meaning).

For do you realize that metaphors are used in the Bible?
Did you know that the Bible says that it uses metaphors or allegories?

Hosea 12:10
"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

Similitude: a likening or comparison in the form of a simile, parable, or allegory http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similitude

He not only made a way for me, He actually IS The Way. He doesn't just tell the truth, He IS The Truth. He doesn't just give me eternal life, He IS Eternal Life.

Yes, God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So nobody can have eternal life or immortality without abiding in Jesus Christ because He is the source of everlasting life. So I agree that God does not hand out eternal life to a person as if it was a super power, too.

So if this is true (Which you just admitted), does that mean that God abides in people in Hell so as to give them eternal life, too? Is God living in them so as to give them eternal life as they are being tortured in the flame forever and ever? Think about it. What you propose doesn't make any sense, my friend. God will not be living within the wicked so as to give them eternal life in the Lake of Fire because eternal life is an exclusive thing that is of God alone. Did you know that the Scriptures say that the last enemy to be destroyed is death? (1 Corinthians 15:26). Who are the other enemies that are destroyed before death?