The word hades is 'a' as in not and 'eidos' which is based on- ediw I think it is spelled, which means to see and understand. And that stupid translation of psuche bothers me. It means breathe. Fear not who can kill the body, but God who can kill the breathe.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
God's Truth
New member
How do you get that?
You need to look at all of scripture and not just two verses out of the Book of Revelation.
The Bible says:
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Scripture cannot be 'explained away' by ignoring it. The fact that hell exists and there will one day be a Lake of Fire where people are going to be tormented for ever and ever cannot be overlooked. It's told to us for a reason. We aren't being lied to (God doesn't work like that) and it isn't a fairy tale. It's Truth.
Jason0047
Member
In Matthew 10:28, the English word "Hell" is not taken from the Greek word "hades." It is taken from the Greek word "Gehenna" which referred to the valley Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the fllth and dead animals of the city were cast out to be burned, a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction or end.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1067&t=KJV
In other words, the English word "Hell in Matthew 10:28 is talking about the Lake of Fire and not the intermediate holding place or prison for the wicked when they die called "hades."
In Luke 16:23, the English word "Hell" is taken from the Greek word "hades." Which means the realm of the dead. In Greek mythology, Hades or Pluto was the god of the underworld.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G86&t=KJV
Usually mythology has some sliver of truth within it. The word "torments" is mentioned, as well; And this was not a parable because Jesus did not base his parables on fictional or unreal scenarios. Neither did any of the other parables have specific names mentiioned either. Which makes this real life story unique. For all the other parables where real life stories, too.
Irony is posting this right after I posted a mountain of scripture that you ignored. Go back to the post right before yours, the post you completely ignored. Scripture cannot be explained away by merely ignoring it.
God's Truth
New member
Why are you trying to dismiss those scriptures? I do not dismiss any scripture.
Why didn't you speak to me about THOSE scriptures that I gave?
As for the scriptures you gave...prove that destroy, perish, and death means to not exist anywhere.
We have death on this earth, but it does not mean we cease to exist.
Aimiel,
re: "... there will one day be a Lake of Fire where people are going to be tormented for ever and ever..."
With the possible exception of the devil as the KJV has it, I'm not aware of any scripture that says that anyone is going to be tormented for ever and ever. What do you have in mind?
re: "... there will one day be a Lake of Fire where people are going to be tormented for ever and ever..."
With the possible exception of the devil as the KJV has it, I'm not aware of any scripture that says that anyone is going to be tormented for ever and ever. What do you have in mind?
I once fully believed in ECT as you do. The church I attend still has ECT as part of our doctrinal statement.
It was only by studying what the Bible says that I came to reject ECT as UnBiblical. If I have preconceived notions they are of eternal conscious torment. Have you ever had any other belief except for the traditional view? How do you know that your understanding is not darkened by your preconceived notions?
God's Truth,
re: "As for the scriptures you gave...prove that destroy, perish, and death means to not exist anywhere."
Why do you want to believe that those words do not mean that?
I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? Who does that benefit? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
So unless you really want the unsaved to be tortured 24/7 for eternity, I don’t understand why you try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything...".
re: "As for the scriptures you gave...prove that destroy, perish, and death means to not exist anywhere."
Why do you want to believe that those words do not mean that?
I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? Who does that benefit? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
So unless you really want the unsaved to be tortured 24/7 for eternity, I don’t understand why you try to interpret scripture to the contrary. Why not concentrate on all of the scriptures that say one way or another that the consequence on sin is death - and take death to mean the cessation and absence of life? Eccl. 9:5 - "...but the dead know not anything...".
To know what the words "destroy", "perish", "be burnt to ash", "to be no more" and "die", and "death" mean, you only have to look them up in any dictionary.
Destroy:
Put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
Perish:
Suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
Die:
(of a person, animal, or plant) stop living.
Death:
The action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.
Now, Can you prove that destroy, perish, and death actually mean "to continue to exist forever"?
As you can see, I believe what the Bible says, using the regular normal definitions of the Bible's words. I gave you plenty of scriptures that say exactly what I am saying. Now it is a matter of will. Do you want to believe God's Word or not?
God's Truth
New member
I only want to believe what God says.
Revelation 20:10...They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ...There will be no rest day or night
God's Truth
New member
To put an end to it as we know it.
That does not mean cease to exist anywhere.
It means to disappear from one’s sight. That does not mean cease to exist anywhere.
We die physically in this earth, but we still live on in our spirit.
We die in our physical body in this world, but our spirit lives on.
I can prove it easily. Read how man cannot kill the body with the spirit.
A soul is a body with the spirit.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I believe God’s Word. The Bible tells us that we live on after the death of our bodies, but you do not believe it. We live on after the death of our bodies and that proves that death, destroy, and perish does not mean cease to exist.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I guess you haven't read this passage in Revelation 14...
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
These are MEN. Not Satan. Not devils. Men.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I do not 'believe in' ECT. I believe in God. I trust His Word. His Word is quite clear on the subject.
It's only logical, since reasonable men who study Scripture believe Truth as presented by The Holy Scriptures and agree together as to what They are saying and collect those understandings into the doctrines and faith of a denomination. It's only recently that flighty new age garbage and other such nonsense has 'reasoned' that God's Word doesn't really mean what It says and have interjected annihiationism and even more foolish doctrines such as universalism and other such nonsensical ideas as queers being acceptable in their 'sexual preference'.
Maybe you need to study more.
You don't seem to give off that vibe. :think:
I don't have any traditional views. Everything I believe about God comes from experience, meditation, hearing and study.
Because I have an inward witness. One Who tells me that His Word is Truth. He is my Helper. He is my Comforter. He is more to me than my next breath. We are closer than my own thoughts. I trust Him with my life. My brain doesn't get in the way of my obedience to Him.
A soul is the life of a body with its spirit.
When the body is made disfunctional or God withdraws the spirit of it then the soul is dead.
There is no consciousness or any life when one is dead.
Christ returns to raise the dead.
LA
When the body is made disfunctional or God withdraws the spirit of it then the soul is dead.
There is no consciousness or any life when one is dead.
Christ returns to raise the dead.
LA
This passage refers to the sufferings of the beast worshippers during the vials of wrath beginning at the return of Christ plus a short time.
by the time of the 7th vial they are all dead.
Rev 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Rev 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.
Rev 16:11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.
LA