Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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No, those who reject eternal life do not awake from the sleep of death, they are deleted. But even the process of their condemnation is so fair as to win the approval of the condemned. Our God is not a childish, sadistic monster.
Jason0047
Member
In Revelation 14:11 KJV:
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?
A heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.
In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”
Source Used:
http://www.apttoteach.org/Theology/End times/pdf/911_Hell.pdf
so eternal salvation isn't eternal?
Jason0047
Member
Look up the passages above and do your own homework (To see for yourself). In other words, the Bible does not always use the words that describe a forever or everlasting state as always in being forever. Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:11 are the only two verses that suggest an unending torment with the words "for ever and ever." (or forever) But as we see in the example of Isaiah 34:10 with the city of Edom and it's smoke ascending up forever, we learn that the word "forever" and it's related words can be used in a temporal sense. If the Bible didn't use "forever" and it's other related words in a temporal sense, then I wouldn't be arguing otherwise. Be honest with yourself, and check it out in prayer, and you will see that it is true.
Evidently.
what makes you think the city of edom isn't burning today?
Ever since the Book of Revelations was added to the end of the New Testament, eternal Sharia Law-type divine punishment was added to the theology.
Early Christians in Syria rejected the book because it was accepted and used by Montanists, who were seen as heretical by the mainstream church.
In the fourth century when the church and the empire became one, bishops argued against including Revelation because of the difficulties of interpretation and the risk of abuse.
Martin Luther did not believe Revelations should ever be included in the biblical canon. Luther considered it to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it."
Calvin, on the other hand believed the book to be canonical,. But it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary. Revelations is never read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, not so in Catholic and Protestant liturgies.
Even today Revelation's obscure and extravagant imagery has led to a wide variety of interpretations.
Early Christians in Syria rejected the book because it was accepted and used by Montanists, who were seen as heretical by the mainstream church.
In the fourth century when the church and the empire became one, bishops argued against including Revelation because of the difficulties of interpretation and the risk of abuse.
Martin Luther did not believe Revelations should ever be included in the biblical canon. Luther considered it to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it."
Calvin, on the other hand believed the book to be canonical,. But it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary. Revelations is never read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, not so in Catholic and Protestant liturgies.
Even today Revelation's obscure and extravagant imagery has led to a wide variety of interpretations.
Wow, what can I say. YOUR EXPLANATION WAS IMPLAUSIBLY STUPID. The rich is awakened form the dead; and you have no proof of God being the eternal tormentor. You have this stupid metaphor of a flame. Maybe you just stupid or something? Maybe you are a bot program.
Actually, εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων, which means into the age of the ages. This is a far cry from for evuh and evuh.
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Jason0047
Member
Because we have satellite imagery and nobody has ever reported a city as being forever on fire (whereby they cannot put the flame out). If you believe this is speaking about the city burring in the spirit world, then you need to show a cross reference to establish this truth. You need to show us other verses that point to other cities as burning in the spirit world. For the Scriptures confirm every truth it teaches with other related verses (or Scripture).
that's easy for you to say
God's Truth
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Why would you be there?
Jason0047
Member
I don't support ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment). I think such a concept is highly un-Biblical. I believe that Hell (Hades) is an intermediate state before the Judgment that is not a place of torture (but a place of torment), and that after the Judgment, all the wicked will eventually be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See Matthew 10:28).
God's Truth
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Are we supposed to spend eternity with evil people?
Haven't you answered your own question in calling it a doctrine?
God's Truth
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The Word of God says the wicked will rise.
Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
God's Truth
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Why don't you like me?
you wreck threads with your constant attacks without really listening to anyone