Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Jason0047
Member
This was taken by the fact that Abraham was worried beforehand about the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by pleading with God for saving these cities if there were enough righteous people within them. He was no doubt saying this because of Lot. Abraham was concerned for the destruction of these cities because he was hoping that there was a righteous man there. For Abraham said, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
For I find it hard to believe that Abraham had a change of heart that quickly on the matter. But if you say so otherwise, then so be it. I merely going off Abraham's recent disposition or conversation with the Lord. Even if his friend was killed for his own wickedness (of which he did not know about), would he not still grieve for Lot in his love for him?
Also, in Matthew 10:28 Jesus says that people cannot destroy the soul.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul..."
(Matthew 10:28).
In other words, this destroys the whole notion that the soul exists only while the body exists.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Seems you have a whole heap o' teachers...
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Sorry, but Scripture is quite clear on the subject of everlasting punishment. I don't need to consult a whole bunch of so called 'educated' people to convince me of it, since Scripture was written for the un-educated and is an expression of God's Wisdom which makes man's into foolishness. You can follow all the ear-scratchers you like, I'll stick with my Bible.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: for true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Sorry, but Scripture is quite clear on the subject of everlasting punishment. I don't need to consult a whole bunch of so called 'educated' people to convince me of it, since Scripture was written for the un-educated and is an expression of God's Wisdom which makes man's into foolishness. You can follow all the ear-scratchers you like, I'll stick with my Bible.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: for true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Jason0047
Member
Actually, you are sticking with Plato and Socrates (i.e. Popular Greek thinkers) who wrongfully believed in the immortality of the soul.
However, the Bible says, that Immortality only comes from God, though.
1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
Again, this aspect that God has eternal life can be found in another passage.
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The wages of sin is what?
Death.
The gift of God is what?
Eternal Life.
So the contrast is:
Eternal Life vs. Death.
And here is another:
1 John 5:12
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
So the contrast is:
Having the Son = Having Life. (versus):
Not having the Son = Not having Life.
And here is another:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So the contrast is:
Everlasting Life vs. Shall Not Perish.
Seems like the Bible is pretty clear to me on this topic, my friend.
However, the Bible says, that Immortality only comes from God, though.
1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
Again, this aspect that God has eternal life can be found in another passage.
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The wages of sin is what?
Death.
The gift of God is what?
Eternal Life.
So the contrast is:
Eternal Life vs. Death.
And here is another:
1 John 5:12
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
So the contrast is:
Having the Son = Having Life. (versus):
Not having the Son = Not having Life.
And here is another:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So the contrast is:
Everlasting Life vs. Shall Not Perish.
Seems like the Bible is pretty clear to me on this topic, my friend.
GuySmiley
Well-known member
It doesn't need to be explained away. It means what it says. It doesn't mean what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that people are eternally consciously tormented in hell.
Temporal torment can't be worse than never being born? I think it can.
Those statements aren't anywhere near each other. That's a lesson against wooden literalism. For instance, Jesus isn't really a door, made of wood, that has hinges. You seem to not have a problem with wooden literalism when it comes to Edom though. Its convenient how you pick and choose.
I agree.
"Slam dunk" is a phrase used by me to mean that the meaning of the Bible is clear. How am I getting off the path by saying that when you say it in the very next sentence? His Word is clear: eternal conscious torment is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
ECT is not death.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
ECT is not destruction. Few find the narrow gate that leads to life.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
ECT is not perishing. Those who believe in Him get eternal life.
Galations 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Those who sow to the Spirit will get everlasting life.
Matthew 13:40
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
The wicked are burned in the fire like tares. Tares don't burn forever.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Vanish? Doesn't sound like ECT.
Psalm 21:9
You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath,
And the fire shall devour them.
Fire devouring them? Doesn't sound like ECT.
Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Again with the devouring. Remaining alive in eternal torment is not being devoured. It's the opposite.
Jason0047
Member
Have you ever tried to debate Scripture with someone on another topic and desired that they just stick with Scripture (as a part of the debate) instead of them resorting to ad hominem attacks? In other words, if you disagree with the verses I presented, then you need to provide your own verses in context that helps to explain or support ECT. For if you cannot defend or explain ECT properly, then what does that say about it, my friend? Do you think that resorting to attacking my character helps to prove that you are right? Do you like it when people attack your character?
I say this because I care and I desire to lead you to the truth on this topic.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Why not? It does say such to my way of thinking.
If the end of someone's existence means they are no more, it wouldn't be better if they'd never been born, because they have the same existence: none. If they are tormented forever in flames, THAT would be worse than being born. Doesn't that make more sense?
When we enter Heaven through Christ, He is The Door we enter through. Thinking He cannot BE a door is applying man's logic to God which should never be done. His ways are higher than ours.
I've never seen a 'slam dunk' of Truth in Scripture. It takes study, prayer, meditation and consecration to find Truth. We don't see God. We find out about Him and we are shown by Scripture how to approach Him and if we do as instructed we find Him. He is Truth. Our ideas are but dust. His Truth is a Rock. The Rock that He spoke of when He rewarded Peter with a new name. The Rock is revelation knowledge. He saw that Peter accepted the Truth that was revealed to Him by The Holy Spirit. That revelation knowledge is what He builds His Kingdom upon. He is The Chief Cornerstone. As we receive revelation knowledge those new 'rocks' are built up inside of us and we become a fortress of Truth. We become the guardians of His Truth because the stones are set in place in our spirit. We keep these things not just for our lives but for eternity. We are building upon the foundation laid by the prophets. The foundation is Christ. The foundation was added to by the apostles. The church down through the ages has come to reveal more Truths about Him and does so every day. These Truths add to one another and lend strength to one another and make a greater and greater fortress. The mature man Christ Jesus will one day be formed in the totality of Christians as we come together under His Banner of Love and we will put ALL of His Enemies under His Feet. Until that day we have to seek Him and learn and grow and temper one another. There are no slam dunks. I see the truth of ECT by reading and studying and praying and meditating His Word. It is plain, to me.
The Word of God says that men will suffer for eternity. I believe The Word of God. The 'second death' is to be cast alive into the Lake of Fire where the torment never ceases.
Destruction of their body and soul in hell doesn't mean disintegration. It means ECT.
They perish in flames for eternity. Because you expect 'perish' to mean 'poof' they're gone doesn't make them gone.
There is nothing but corruption in hell.
The Holy Scriptures say that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. How is that possible if they're not still being tormented.
The great gulf that is fixed between Heaven and hell doesn't allow anyone to cross it. Outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is probably so far away from Heaven that it cannot even be seen. They are not seen, so they have vanished from sight of those who are alive.
It does to me. It doesn't say that they don't exist.
It is being devoured, being swallowed, being reduced to ashes and being eaten by worms for ever and ever. It isn't life: it is torment. That isn't life. Life is growth. Life is rest. Life is having goodness. ECT has no goodness. It only has torment, in every possible way.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I have and you have ignored them. What is says is that you're ignoring God's Words in favor of your pet philosophy. It says that you don't want to accept what God said but you want to twist His Words into your meaning. Scripture doesn't work like that. We see Truth through believing His Word not cherry-picking It.
God's Truth
New member
Don’t say that, since the scriptures do not say that. Abraham was worried about any righteous being swept away.
Genesis 18:22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
If Lot was righteous, why do you think that God would sweep away a righteous man with the wicked? If Abraham worried about Lot, why would you make up a whole story about Abraham being tortured by a fire? It just is senseless. The scriptures do not say righteous people are tortured by fire, so why do you say that?
I have shown you that Matthew 10:28 proves the spirit exist without the physical body.
Timotheos and others here do not believe our spirits live on after the death of the body.
Matthew 10:28 proves that we have spirits that live on after the death of the body.
Jason0047
Member
I believe you are cherry picking the Scriptures, too. The difference between us is that you have not provided any Biblical explanation so as to support the verses I have used to support the Conditional View. In other words, I have not just thrown you a bunch of verses at you only to support my position alone, but I have explained those verses that are on the opposing side using Scripture. I have explained the so called proof texts of the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) position with other verses. You have not done that, my friend.
For example: We still need to see a set of verses proving that Isaiah 34:10 is in reference to the city burning in the spiritual world. For every passage in the Bible has a cross reference attached to it in some way.
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Jason0047
Member
Abraham rescued Lot from Sodom before. Are you saying that Abraham did not know where Lot was? How come Abraham was living so close to Sodom?
You really need to read what I wrote again. You have managed to completely misunderstand everything that I had written. First, Abraham asked the the Lord the question "will not the Judge of the Earth do right?" This was Abraham's concern which was expressed within the Scriptures. If you do not like what Abraham has said, I suggest that you take it up with God and ask Him about it. Second, Abraham was not being tortured by a fire. He was not in any physical pain. I never said that. I said he was tormented (troubled) by the picture of the fire within his mind. Abraham was troubled in the fact that Lot might have perished in Sodom. That is why he said to the Lord, "shall not the Judge of the Earth do right?" I doubt Abraham would have changed his mind the very next day. Especially after seeing the city of Sodom was billowing with smoke.
I believe other verses spell it out more clearly that our spirit lives on after we die.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
However, do you believe that we only have a soul while we are alive, though?
If so, then how do you explain Matthew 10:28 that says otherwise?
God's Truth
New member
You said a righteous man, Abraham, was tortured by fire. I would not say such a thing.
I said our spirits live on after the death of our bodies. I said it clearly. Why can't you see that?
A soul is a physical flesh body with a spirit.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Jason0047
Member
No, that's not what I said.
If you were to read slowly, you would see that I had said this,
"I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city."
I am not disagreeing with you on this point. I said the spirit does live on after the physical body dies. I posted that verse from Ecclesiastes to show that.
A LIVING soul. Not a soul in general.
Matthew 10:28 specifically says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:..."
Did you catch that?
We learn from the first half of this verse that:
#1. We are not to fear them that can kill the body.
#2. Or to fear them that cannot kill the soul.
But you say that the soul can only exist with the body. But if others are capable of killing the body, are they not also killing the soul by your definition of what makes up a soul?
Yet Jesus says, others cannot kill the soul. For Jesus is trying to tell us that we are to fear Him (Jesus) who is able to kill both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Which is destruction or annihilation of one's entire being.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It's not my job to provide Scripture to support your view. I have shown that the Truth about ECT is in Scripture, you're just passing over it. The Scriptures you've provided are not denying that ECT takes place. They're simply pointing out the fact that there is no life in hell, only torment.
The verses which speak about fire not being quenched and worms not dying do support ECT. You're just not paying attention to them.
Mark 9:42-48
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I can tell you from personal experience: it is NOT good to hear God say something a SECOND time... it is REALLY bad to have to hear something repeated THREE times. He was stressing that this is the truth: the fire will not be quenched and the worm won't die. It will be eternal conscious torment. There are plenty of verses which support it. The annihilationist view is NOT supported by Scripture. You're grasping at straws.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Another verse which supports ECT is this one:
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Men only die ONCE. They don't die in hell, they're tormented forever, because they are already dead they cannot die a second time, because God would have to be a liar. They are eternally conscious of their torment. Dead men full of regret, despair and pain. That's all. No light. No company. No relief. No water. No growth. No hope. No breath. No fresh air. Only fire, brimstone, smoke and worms. Torment.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Men only die ONCE. They don't die in hell, they're tormented forever, because they are already dead they cannot die a second time, because God would have to be a liar. They are eternally conscious of their torment. Dead men full of regret, despair and pain. That's all. No light. No company. No relief. No water. No growth. No hope. No breath. No fresh air. Only fire, brimstone, smoke and worms. Torment.
Jason0047
Member
We've already been over this point already. The fire that is everlasting which cannot be quenched and their worm that does not die does not refer to the actual person who is suffering. These are external things that are separate from a person.
For example: That would be like me saying, king Bright-haven had carried his sword of everlasting power within the land of everlasting fog. Now, does that mean the king is everlasting? No. Nowhere did I say the king was everlasting. He only possessed something that was everlasting and was within a land that had everlasting fog. Outside things does not equate with a person.
For the fire can be everlasting and the worm can not die even after everyone has been consumed by the everlasting fire and worms.
As for it is appointed unto men once to die: Well, the Scriptures say that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. So if you are to take death as meaning literal once, then why do you ignore it's meaning when it speaks of the Second Death? Why do you ignore the Scriptures when it talks about eternal destruction, or perishing?
For example: That would be like me saying, king Bright-haven had carried his sword of everlasting power within the land of everlasting fog. Now, does that mean the king is everlasting? No. Nowhere did I say the king was everlasting. He only possessed something that was everlasting and was within a land that had everlasting fog. Outside things does not equate with a person.
For the fire can be everlasting and the worm can not die even after everyone has been consumed by the everlasting fire and worms.
As for it is appointed unto men once to die: Well, the Scriptures say that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. So if you are to take death as meaning literal once, then why do you ignore it's meaning when it speaks of the Second Death? Why do you ignore the Scriptures when it talks about eternal destruction, or perishing?
Aimiel
Well-known member
If the fire is not tormenting anyone and the worm isn't eating anyone why make them last forever? Obviously they're necessary for torment to continue forever.
Because it clearly doesn't say they were erased from existence but rather that them being tormented in the Lake of Fire forever is their fate which is not eradication but the end of their interface with those who inherit eternal glory.
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I have not seen one passage that proves eternal torment. It is either twisted from the Greek or misinterpreted by the time it gets to English. The doctrine appeals to the small minded.
Jason0047
Member
Also, I think I did not explain it properly or clearly enough. What I am suggesting is the difference between us is that I have explained the verses that supposedly appear to support the ECT position and I have explained them from a Conditional Viewpoint (using Scripture). What you are failing to do is to explain Conditional verses from an ECT viewpoint (with Scripture). Meaning, you have to explain all of the words verses that seem to work against ECT with words such as perish, destruction, death, second death, destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, etc. (By using Scripture). This is something that I know you cannot do.