Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

good point

it not only makes God look bad
but
you have to wonder about those who think it is necessary

do they want others to suffer?

I think that is it. There must be someone that they can't forgive and they don't want to give up the thought of them being tortured in hell forever.

Res is a good example, he posted to someone, "I can't wait to see you burn in hell". If eternal torture in hell is wrong, he won't be able to get his jollies watching a girl burn alive.

 

[Aimiel]

No, If there is smoke there is smoke.

For ever and ever.

And if there is torment there is torment.

For ever and ever.

And if the torment continued on forever, the Bible would have said that at least once and it doesn't.

What? It says it, you're just not capable of understanding.

Just because you post "duh", it doesn't make you correct. Its offensive.

No, but just because you refuse to admit to Truth doesn't make it go away, either. You take offense too easily. You need to learn how to take a joke. :duh:

This is what happens to people who believe their God approves of eternal torture. They begin to resemble their false image of God. You feel you can say any offensive thing to me that you want to since your god will probably torture me forever anyway.

No, I believe that human beings should have a sense of humor, not a wad of hatred. :duh:

 

[Jason0047]

No, and I'm glad you showed up because it's not too late to stop me from adopting this.


Great verses! What does it have to do with the topic? I need some commentary here.


This I think is the single strongest verse in favor of ECT. It is, I think, the only verse even appearing to support ECT. It's all alone, trying to support ECT. And its a stretch to read it that way, making the belief of ECT very weak in my mind. However many verses when read plainly and taken at face value support annihilationism.

I don't change my mind on these matters lightly, but this seems to be a slam dunk so far.

At first glance, Revelation 14:11 appears to be a slam dunk in favor of ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), but what our friend here is failing to mention is that this verse is tied to Isaiah 34:10; which tells us it is a metaphorical phrase. For Isaiah 34:10 also mentions about a smoke that ascends up forever in relation to the city of Idumea (Edom). Is the city of Idumea (Edom) burning today? No, of course not. So this type of phrase lets us know that Revelation 14:11 is speaking metaphorically.

 

[Aimiel]

If God says Edom is burning forever, then it is, whether you ever believe it is or not. :duh:

 

[resurrected]

This is a discussion forum.

and one of the things that i like to discuss is abnormal psychology

If someone claims that God set up a place of eternal torture, that smears God's name and that matters to me.

you think john smears God's name?

"There will be no rest day or night..."

 

[God's Truth]

Where's the Bible verse?

Here is one.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Well, the Bible does not specifically say that the devil, his angels, and death will all go into the Lake of Fire first before all those wicked people who died in their sins (without Jesus). First, Revelation 20:11-15 is not in chronological order. Second, Hell is made up of all the wicked unrepentant people, too. The only two verses that I discovered that suggest that the devil and his minions will be in the Lake of Fire before evil men is Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10. So while I don't deny that such a thing is a very likely possibility based on those two verses, it is not clearly spelled out as being 100% clear; However, that still does not change the fact that death will be the last enemy that will be destroyed, though (1 Corinthians 15:26). Meaning, that when everyone is destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) as Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, the power of death itself will be destroyed because everyone wicked would have already had went thru the second death process of annihilation within Gehenna.

Who said anything about the devil? I showed that people were thrown in after death and Hades.

This also does not change the fact that in the Eternal New Earth, Jesus says there will be NO MORE DEATH, no more PAIN (i.e. No Eternal Conscious Torment), and the former things will have PASSED AWAY.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Anyways, I hope you understand where I am coming from.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

You say things that have nothing to do with our conversation. Why do you do that?
You act as if you taught me something by throwing in an obvious truth to try to act as if you got the last word in and taught something.
That is deceitful.

 

[Jason0047]

If God says Edom is burning forever, then it is, whether you ever believe it is or not. :duh:

I believe Isaiah 34:10 is 100% true when it says that the smoke of Edom rises up forever. However, it depends on how you read the verse as being true, though. For you can...

#1. Read the verse as it being metaphorical.
#2. Read the verse as it being literal within the real world.
#3. Read the verse as it being literal within the spiritual world.

Seeing #2 is not possible because we see no city of Edom burning today, we are left with one of the other two choices above (either #1 or #3). And seeing we see no other verse about how the land of cities are actually billowing smoke in the spiritual world or in Hell forever, we have to conclude that this verse is speaking metaphorically.

For not all verses in the Bible are to be read literally. For example: Jesus said we are gods. Does that mean we are literally mini versions of God? No, of course not. Passages have to be read in their context and by cross referencing Scripture. If not, then one is wrongfully creating a "One-verse-ism" type Theology.

 

[God's Truth]

You see anger because you are angry.
For if there was no anger, then there would be no angry attacks against me.

You try to use scripture against me. You did not do this because you are a good guy. Move on now. You cannot use scripture against me. You are being evil. Jesus has revealed himself to me, and you saying he didn't is a lie against Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Well, your gonna have to prove your case with Scripture using the context of the verses I posted. For I like a good challenge in digging deep into God's Word.

You added to the Bible and said Abraham doubted God, and you want me to prove you wrong with scripture. You proved yourself wrong.

 

[God's Truth]

This is a discussion forum. We discuss theology online. Eternal life in Christ is not an "obscure aspect of God's plan", it is theology. The study of God, whether or not He designed a place of eternal torture and whether or not He thinks eternal torture is good. If it doesn't matter to you, you could go to a different discussion, or go ride a bike or something.

If someone claims that God set up a place of eternal torture, that smears God's name and that matters to me.

God made it so we all die in this life. Is that okay with you?

 

[God's Truth]

According to the Bible, the wicked will cease to exist:
"In just a little while, the wicked will be no more
though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there." Psalm 37

But the wicked will perish;
the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

This sure looks to me like the wicked cease to exist. I don't know how you can look at these verses and think the wicked will remain forever in hell being tortured. It just looks like stubbornness to me.

They cease to exist near the righteous.

 

[God's Truth]

I think that is it. There must be someone that they can't forgive and they don't want to give up the thought of them being tortured in hell forever.

Res is a good example, he posted to someone, "I can't wait to see you burn in hell". If eternal torture in hell is wrong, he won't be able to get his jollies watching a girl burn alive.

You are trying to slander those who believe there will be some who will have no rest day and night.

If someone is devoid of God, what do you think life will be like for him or her?

 

[Jason0047]

We die a physical death in this lifetime, but our spirits live on. Therefore, your death theory being permanent is mute.

Where's the Bible verse?

Here is one.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28 is your proof that the spirit lives on?
Actually, Matthew 10:28 says the exact opposite because Jesus says fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So how exactly can you suffer eternally in Gehenna with your spirit if you soul and body is destroyed?

Well, if I remember correctly, you believe the soul only exists as a part of the body. But that is not what the Scriptures teach, though.

For the Scriptures say that Christ's soul was not left in Hell.

Acts 2:31
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. ."

And that God (who is Spirit) has a soul.

Leviticus 26:11
"And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you."

And at the breaking of the fifth seal, the souls in Heaven cry out to God for vengeance in them being physically killed.

Revelation 6:9-10
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Also, the body that Jesus said he is able to destroy in Gehenna (i.e. Lake of Fire) in Matthew 10:28 is not their earthly body but it is their new resurrected body that is a part of the resurrection of the damned (John 5:29).

Who said anything about the devil? I showed that people were thrown in after death and Hades.

What is your definition of death?
Is it a demon or just the power of death?

What is your definition of Hades?
Is it a place and it's inhabitants such as demons?
Does it include people, too?
Or is it just the place?
Or just Satan and his minions?

You say things that have nothing to do with our conversation. Why do you do that?

Last I checked the topic of this thread has to do with ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is Biblical or not. I believe the following verse refutes that type of thinking.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

For key points of the passage we should take notice to is:

(a) The former things have passed away.
(b) There shall be no more pain.
(c) There shall be no more death.

In other words if we were to read these above passages as being 100% literal, then we can conclude that the former things have passed away (meaning things will not be like they are now). We can also conclude that there will be no more pain, too. Not just pain in the Eternal New Earth but no more pain PERIOD. There will be no pain whatsoever for anyone (Including those in Hell because they have been destroyed both body and soul). We can also conclude that there will be no more death, too. For the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death (1 Corinthians 15:26).

You act as if you taught me something by throwing in an obvious truth to try to act as if you got the last word in and taught something.
That is deceitful.

I am sorry, you are imagining something that is not there.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[Jason0047]

You try to use scripture against me. You did not do this because you are a good guy. Move on now. You cannot use scripture against me. You are being evil. Jesus has revealed himself to me, and you saying he didn't is a lie against Jesus.

Well, I do not accept your accusations. However, I do love you by the power of Jesus Christ, though.

 

[Jason0047]

You added to the Bible and said Abraham doubted God, and you want me to prove you wrong with scripture. You proved yourself wrong.

Where did I say Abraham doubted God?

 

[God's Truth]

Matthew 10:28 is your proof that the spirit lives on?
Actually, Matthew 10:28 says the exact opposite because Jesus says fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So how exactly can you suffer eternally in Gehenna with your spirit if you soul and body is destroyed?

Well, if I remember correctly, you believe the soul only exists as a part of the body. But that is not what the Scriptures teach, though.

For the Scriptures say that Christ's soul was not left in Hell.

Acts 2:31
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. ."

And that God (who is Spirit) has a soul.

Leviticus 26:11
"And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you."

And at the breaking of the fifth seal, the souls in Heaven cry out to God for vengeance in them being physically killed.

Revelation 6:9-10
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Also, the body that Jesus said he is able to destroy in Gehenna (i.e. Lake of Fire) in Matthew 10:28 is not their earthly body but it is their new resurrected body that is a part of the resurrection of the damned (John 5:29).



What is your definition of death?
Is it a demon or just the power of death?

What is your definition of Hades?
Is it a place and it's inhabitants such as demons?
Does it include people, too?
Or is it just the place?
Or just Satan and his minions?



Last I checked the topic of this thread has to do with ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is Biblical or not. I believe the following verse refutes that type of thinking.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

For key points of the passage we should take notice to is:

(a) The former things have passed away.
(b) There shall be no more pain.
(c) There shall be no more death.

In other words if we were to read these above passages as being 100% literal, then we can conclude that the former things have passed away (meaning things will not be like they are now). We can also conclude that there will be no more pain, too. Not just pain in the Eternal New Earth but no more pain PERIOD. There will be no pain whatsoever for anyone (Including those in Hell because they have been destroyed both body and soul). We can also conclude that there will be no more death, too. For the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death (1 Corinthians 15:26).



I am sorry, you are imagining something that is not there.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

I just am not interested in reading and replying to this post.

 

[God's Truth]

Well, I do not accept your accusations. However, I do love you by the power of Jesus Christ, though.

Jesus has nothing to do with you trying to use scripture against me.

I want nothing to do with your type of love.

 

[God's Truth]

Where did I say Abraham doubted God?

Here:

Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city.

Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.

 

[Aimiel]

I believe Isaiah 34:10 is 100% true when it says that the smoke of Edom rises up forever.

So do I. Thank you!!!

However, it depends on how you read the verse as being true, though.

100%

For you can...

#1. Read the verse as it being metaphorical.

I don't quite understand what the metaphor might be designed to represent, but, okay. Kinda' doubt it, since the reference to everlasting fire appears so many other places.

#2. Read the verse as it being literal within the real world.

That's how I read it. I don't believe God would give us an imaginary illustration. Before you ask: I believe that hell is a literal place inside the earth's core, where demons torment souls until they are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire as well as all those in hell.

#3. Read the verse as it being literal within the spiritual world.

Yes, it's spiritual, as well. Sprit is actually more real than physical (temporal) creation.

Seeing #2 is not possible because we see no city of Edom burning today, we are left with one of the other two choices above (either #1 or #3).

I imagine that the city is literally burning in the 'real' world, physical AND spiritual.

And seeing we see no other verse about how the land of cities are actually billowing smoke in the spiritual world or in Hell forever, we have to conclude that this verse is speaking metaphorically.

You have a mouse in your pocket? I don't conclude any such thing. God said it, I believe it and it's true whether you believe it or not.

For not all verses in the Bible are to be read literally. For example: Jesus said we are gods. Does that mean we are literally mini versions of God?

I wouldn't argue with Him. Did you think that He blasphemed when He said so? Was He lying? Stretching the Truth, perhaps? I don't think He did such.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't quite understand what the metaphor might be designed to represent, but, okay. Kinda' doubt it, since the reference to everlasting fire appears so many other places.

The metaphor of smoke that ascends up for ever and ever is in showing it's total destruction of something for all time leaving nothing but ashes.

Forest fires can last a long time, but that does not mean they torment people alive within them. Fires consume their victims; And that is exactly what the language of the Bible describes fire as within the Scriptures over and over, too. The fire of Hell within the Bible is not described it as a living torturing device, or a purification device, but it is described as a consuming device like it is in the real world today. So both the testimony of Scripture and real life show that you are wrong about this everlasting fire, my friend. You assume a condition upon the everlasting fire that does not exist or that goes beyond what the Bible describes this fire to do. For fires turn things into ashes. Here is an example:

2 Peter 2:6
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

In fact, the clearest description of the total destruction of the wicked is found on the last page of the Old Testament:

"For behold, the day comes burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch" (Malachi 4:1).

Here the imagery of the all-consuming fire which leaves "neither root nor branch" suggests utter consumption and destruction, not perpetual torment. The same truth is expressed by God’s next prophet, John the Baptist, who cried in the wilderness summoning people to repentance in view of the approaching fire of God’s judgment (Matt 3:7-12).

Matthew 3:10
"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Matthew 3:12
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff is the husks of corn or other seed separated by winnowing or threshing.
We see the chaff burning up by an unquenchable fire!
This is the picture we see.
Not eternal conscious torment.

That's how I read it.

No, that is what you have been taught because that is what the majority of churches teach. But truth is not determined by what is popular, though.

I don't believe God would give us an imaginary illustration.

So there are no metaphors in the Bible?
No Metonymy in the Scriptures?

Metonymy in the Bible

Before you ask: I believe that hell is a literal place inside the earth's core, where demons torment souls until they are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire as well as all those in hell. Yes, it's spiritual, as well. Sprit is actually more real than physical (temporal) creation.I imagine that the city is literally burning in the 'real' world, physical AND spiritual.You have a mouse in your pocket? I don't conclude any such thing. God said it, I believe it and it's true whether you believe it or not.I wouldn't argue with Him. Did you think that He blasphemed when He said so? Was He lying? Stretching the Truth, perhaps? I don't think He did such.

God is not stretching the truth or lying. He is using a metaphor to illustrate the picture of total destruction of a city. We see this example used in Scripture within 2 Peter 2:6 (cf. Genesis 19:27, 28). For Jude says Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. Yet we see in 2 Peter 2:6 that Sodom is still not burning by an eternal fire today but it was destroyed to ashes by an eternal fire.

Also, as for your theory that the city of Edom burns in the spiritual world today. Well, like I said before. You need to provide a couple of other cross references or other verses that prove this theory. For you cannot make a theology or hold to a truth based on just one verse. Again, that would be "One-Verse-ism" Theology; And the Bible does not support such a practice. For we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual things and we are to seek the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not.