God's Truth
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The smoke from their destruction ascends forever, just like the Bible says.
The scripture says the smoke from their torment will rise for ever and ever.
The smoke from their destruction ascends forever, just like the Bible says.
and the "they have no rest day nor night" part?
that's just one day and one night?
The scripture says the smoke from their torment will rise for ever and ever.
Can you explain why you posted a verse that proves the soul can be destroyed when you are trying to say the opposite? :chuckle:Could you explain some things to me?
If the soul cannot be killed, then how do those not saved just stop existing?
In Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you believe death is a punishment? I do. I believe death, after the second death for people who receive it, will be eternal.Could you explain to me how eternal life is in fact eternal, but eternal punishment is not really eternal punishment, since the dead will not know they are dead?
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I'm no expert on worms in hell. Are you really basing your theology on the behavior of worms in hell?Can you explain this to me...
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
When in hell, if the worms do not die, how is it that the unsaved will die?
After that maybe nobody can die? Is there a problem with that?Can you explain this to me? How does anyone die if death is thrown in the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
No, and I'm glad you showed up because it's not too late to stop me from adopting this.Do you realize that It actually says that?
Great verses! What does it have to do with the topic? I need some commentary here.Revelation 13:5-8
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This I think is the single strongest verse in favor of ECT. It is, I think, the only verse even appearing to support ECT. It's all alone, trying to support ECT. And its a stretch to read it that way, making the belief of ECT very weak in my mind. However many verses when read plainly and taken at face value support annihilationism.Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
.... BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE TORTURE LASTS FOREVER!
why does it matter so much to you? :idunno:
we don't want anyone to suffer forever
now
what does that say about you?
but you're ok with having them suffer for a while? :freak:
why does it matter so much to you? :idunno:
God's Word? Why does it matter to me? Is that your question?
I understand what you are saying but you are wrong.Yes, and it doesn't say that their torment will last forever. It says the smoke from their torment will ascend forever. The SMOKE will ascend forever. The SMOKE, not the torment. The smoke. Do you understand this? It doesn't say the torment will last forever. Understand?
And Remember that your verse (the one YOU said I ignored) doesn't SAY their torment lasts forever, it says the SMOKE ascends forever. Maybe this means the torture lasts forever and maybe it doesn't, BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE TORTURE LASTS FOREVER!
It is hell being separated from the love of God.Also, recall the Bible says that the wicked will be completely destroyed. Please don't ignore that. Remember that Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in hell. Remember that Jesus said the way is wide that leads to DESTRUCTIOn (Not torture in hell).
why does it matter to you that others accept your particular interpretation of this obscure aspect of God's plan?
Timotheos says we do not live on after the death of our physical bodies. I showed him a scripture that tells us the spirit could not be killed by humans.Can you explain why you posted a verse that proves the soul can be destroyed when you are trying to say the opposite?
You did not answer my question. Could you explain how being punished is eternal if it results in death.Do you believe death is a punishment? I do. I believe death, after the second death for people who receive it, will be eternal.
So then, you have no answer for your belief concerning this scripture.I'm no expert on worms in hell. Are you really basing your theology on the behavior of worms in hell?
Why do you say after that? The scripture has people being put into the lake of fire after death is put there.After that maybe nobody can die? Is there a problem with that?
With that argument, it sounds as if you are merely denying what the scriptures say.The plain reading of so many verses is that the two options for us after life is death or eternal life. You guys have to use verses for which you stretch the meanings to support your view. I'll take the plain meaning of many verses over the stretched, contorted, interpolated meaning of a few (really only one) verses.
but a God who punishes before annihlilation does?
You have to believe destroy, death, perish, turn to ashes, consume, all mean the opposite of what they seem to mean to believe ECT. On the other hand I get to just believe they mean what they mean.Timotheos says we do not live on after the death of our physical bodies. I showed him a scripture that tells us the spirit could not be killed by humans.
Again, however, destroy does not always been to no longer exist anywhere.
Death is a punishment. Death is eternal. Death is an eternal punishment. Not sure what else to say to make it more clear.You did not answer my question. Could you explain how being punished is eternal if it results in death.
Yes I do. My answer is that the worms are eternal. I am unconvinced that you can extrapolate ECT from this verse, it just doesn't say that.So then, you have no answer for your belief concerning this scripture.
Interesting, Ill look at it.Why do you say after that? The scripture has people being put into the lake of fire after death is put there.
If words don't mean things to you that they mean to me, there's not much point in talking to you. I could say the same about you. But you responded to me saying the exact opposite of what I said. You cant just build strawmen like that. I specifically said that I believe the plain and face value meaning of many verses. How do you get that I'm denying what scripture says? Are we speaking the same language? I have a feeling we wont be talking much in the future.With that argument, it sounds as if you are merely denying what the scriptures say.