Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Jason0047]

Why do you say after that? The scripture has people being put into the lake of fire after death is put there.

Interesting, Ill look at it.

Death and Hell (With all the dead within it) are cast into the Lake of Fire at the same time.

Revelation 20:13-14
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

In addition, we also learn that the Scriptures say that the last enemy to be destroyed IS death.

1 Corinthians 15:26
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This makes sense because in the Eternal New Earth, Jesus says there will be no more death, no more PAIN (i.e. No Eternal Conscious Torment), and the former things will have passed away.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."


Side Note:

It is also important to note that Jesus says, "I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

This ties in with Christ's other words, when He said,

“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”​

(Matthew 10:28 ABPE)
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)​

Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm

 

[God's Truth]

In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.

Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. Abraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.

In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

What in the world are you talking about.

 

[Jason0047]

1 Corinthians 2:10 KJV
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

James 1:5 KJV
Jeremiah 33:3 KJV

 

[God's Truth]

You have to believe destroy, death, perish, turn to ashes, consume, all mean the opposite of what they seem to mean to believe ECT. On the other hand I get to just believe they mean what they mean.

Did Adam and Eve die the day they ate the forbidden fruit?
Did they physically die that day?

Death is a punishment. Death is eternal. Death is an eternal punishment. Not sure what else to say to make it more clear.

Do you believe in the life of the spirit after physical death?

Yes I do. My answer is that the worms are eternal. I am unconvinced that you can extrapolate ECT from this verse, it just doesn't say that.

Worms eating flesh are eternal, but the torment is not. You have not convinced me.

If words don't mean things to you that they mean to me, there's not much point in talking to you. I could say the same about you. But you responded to me saying the exact opposite of what I said. You cant just build strawmen like that. I specifically said that I believe the plain and face value meaning of many verses. How do you get that I'm denying what scripture says? Are we speaking the same language? I have a feeling we wont be talking much in the future.

The straw man is you saying ‘straw man’.

You said their worm does not die but they do. What is their worm feeding on if they do not exist?
You said they die before death is thrown in the lake of fire. However, they are thrown in the lake of fire AFTER death is thrown in.

Do not be so sensitive when we discuss. You can see from what you say that I have every right to question you further.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Corinthians 2:10 KJV
1 John 2:20 ESV
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

James 1:5 KJV
Jeremiah 33:3 KJV

You are not speaking the deep things of God. You cross referenced 'he lifted up his eyes.'

Abraham had so much faith in God that he was going to sacrifice his son, but you want us to believe he wondered if God made sure Lot was out of the city before he destroyed it.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Corinthians 2:10 KJV
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

James 1:5 KJV
Jeremiah 33:3 KJV

You keep adding scripture out of anger, but there are no scriptures you can use against me.

 

[Jason0047]

In Genesis 18, Abraham lifted up his eyes towards three men with one of them being His Lord (A pre-incarnate Christ). Abraham's lifting up of his eyes to His Lord shows that He had favor with Jesus in being in a humble position before Him.

Vs.

In Luke 16, the Rich-Man who lifted up his eyes in torments shows us that he did not have favor with Jesus because of the life that he lived. Both Abraham and the Rich-Man each received their due justice that they deserved. Abraham lived by faith in God and the Rich-Man didn't. Despite outwards appearances to people, the Judge of all the Earth did indeed do right by both of these men. They each received properly what they deserved.

 

[God's Truth]

Death and Hell (With all the dead within it) are cast into the Lake of Fire at the same time.

Revelation 20:13-14
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

In addition, we also learn that the Scriptures say that the last enemy to be destroyed IS death.

1 Corinthians 15:26
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This makes sense because in the Eternal New Earth, Jesus says there will be no more death, no more PAIN (i.e. No Eternal Conscious Torment), and the former things will have passed away.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."


Side Note:

It is also important to note that Jesus says, "I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

This ties in with Christ's other words, when He said,

“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”​

(Matthew 10:28 ABPE)
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)​

Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm

We die a physical death in this lifetime, but our spirits live on.

Therefore, your death theory being permanent is mute.

As for you saying the scriptures say that the unsaved are thrown in at the same time as death...that is not so. After people are judged, then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Then in 15 it says, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Which makes sense, since all will be raised immortal.

 

[Jason0047]

You keep adding scripture out of anger, but there are no scriptures you can use against me.

I am sorry to disappoint you. There was no anger or malice in my heart when I posted those verses to you. I merely shown you the verses as a matter of stating the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

In Genesis 18, Abraham lifted up his eyes towards three men with one of them being His Lord (A pre-incarnate Christ). Abraham's lifting up of his eyes to His Lord shows that He had favor with Jesus in being in a humble position before Him.

Vs.

In Luke 16, the Rich-Man who lifted up his eyes in torments shows us that he did not have favor with Jesus because of the life that he lived. Both Abraham and the Rich-Man each received the the due justice that they deserved. Abraham lived by faith in God and the Rich-Man didn't. Despite outwards appearances to people, the Judge of all the Earth did indeed do right by both of these men. They each received properly what they deserved.

You are saying things about the passages that are not in the Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

I am sorry to disappoint you. There was no anger or malice in my heart when I posted those verses to you. I merely shown you the verses as a matter of stating the truth.

I see anger, and as I already told you, you cannot use scripture against me.

 

[Jason0047]

We die a physical death in this lifetime, but our spirits live on. Therefore, your death theory being permanent is mute.

Where's the Bible verse?

As for you saying the scriptures say that the unsaved are thrown in at the same time as death...that is not so. After people are judged, then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Then in 15 it says, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Which makes sense, since all will be raised immortal.

Well, the Bible does not specifically say that the devil, his angels, and death will all go into the Lake of Fire first before all those wicked people who died in their sins (without Jesus). First, Revelation 20:11-15 is not in chronological order. Second, Hell is made up of all the wicked unrepentant people, too. The only two verses that I discovered that suggest that the devil and his minions will be in the Lake of Fire before evil men is Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10. So while I don't deny that such a thing is a very likely possibility based on those two verses, it is not clearly spelled out as being 100% clear; However, that still does not change the fact that death will be the last enemy that will be destroyed, though (1 Corinthians 15:26). Meaning, that when everyone is destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) as Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, the power of death itself will be destroyed because everyone wicked would have already had went thru the second death process of annihilation within Gehenna.

This also does not change the fact that in the Eternal New Earth, Jesus says there will be NO MORE DEATH, no more PAIN (i.e. No Eternal Conscious Torment), and the former things will have PASSED AWAY.

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Anyways, I hope you understand where I am coming from.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[Jason0047]

I see anger, and as I already told you, you cannot use scripture against me.

You see anger because you are angry.
For if there was no anger, then there would be no angry attacks against me.

 

[Jason0047]

You are saying things about the passages that are not in the Bible.

Well, your gonna have to prove your case with Scripture using the context of the verses I posted. For I like a good challenge in digging deep into God's Word.

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, and it doesn't say that their torment will last forever. It says the smoke from their torment will ascend forever. The SMOKE will ascend forever.

If there's still smoke, there's still torment. :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

No, and I'm glad you showed up because it's not too late to stop me from adopting this.

Good, I'm glad you feel that way. I'm never too old to learn something new about God.

Great verses! What does it have to do with the topic? I need some commentary here.

Every soul who worships the beast or his image will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire where they are tormented for ever and ever.

This I think is the single strongest verse in favor of ECT.

It's one that cannot be explained away. It's one that sticks in the crawl of those who are annihilation proponents and universalism proponents alike.

It is, I think, the only verse even appearing to support ECT.

What about Jesus' stern warnings about hell? What about Him saying that it would be better for Judas if he had never been born? Without eternal conscious torment what could be worse than never being born?

However many verses when read plainly and taken at face value support annihilationism.

Yes, many verses, read plainly can lead to error. Consider this excerpt from Scripture:

Judas hanged himself.

Go thou and do likewise.

That's two direct quotes from Scripture. Read them out-of-context, together, and they appear to be proposing suicide. You have to read the entire Bible and let The Bible give you insight into what It is saying. It is called: "The Living Word of God," for a reason. God speaks to us through The Holy Scriptures. He speaks to us personally, if we will wait on Him.

I don't change my mind on these matters lightly, but this seems to be a slam dunk so far.

You're getting off the path by making His Word a 'slam dunk.' His Word is clear: eternal conscious torment is Scriptural and is what will happen to a vast number of people.

 

[Timotheos]

why does it matter to you that others accept your particular interpretation of this obscure aspect of God's plan?

This is a discussion forum. We discuss theology online. Eternal life in Christ is not an "obscure aspect of God's plan", it is theology. The study of God, whether or not He designed a place of eternal torture and whether or not He thinks eternal torture is good. If it doesn't matter to you, you could go to a different discussion, or go ride a bike or something.

If someone claims that God set up a place of eternal torture, that smears God's name and that matters to me.

 

[chrysostom]

This is a discussion forum. We discuss theology online. Eternal life in Christ is not an "obscure aspect of God's plan", it is theology. The study of God, whether or not He designed a place of eternal torture and whether or not He thinks eternal torture is good. If it doesn't matter to you, you could go to a different discussion, or go ride a bike or something.

If someone claims that God set up a place of eternal torture, that smears God's name and that matters to me.

good point

it not only makes God look bad
but
you have to wonder about those who think it is necessary

do they want others to suffer?

 

[Timotheos]

Thanks for trying to answer my questions. I am not convinced that anyone ceases to exist ever.

According to the Bible, the wicked will cease to exist:
"In just a little while, the wicked will be no more
though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there." Psalm 37

But the wicked will perish;
the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

This sure looks to me like the wicked cease to exist. I don't know how you can look at these verses and think the wicked will remain forever in hell being tortured. It just looks like stubbornness to me.

 

[Timotheos]

If there's still smoke, there's still torment. :duh:

No, If there is smoke there is smoke.
And if there is torment there is torment.
And if the torment continued on forever, the Bible would have said that at least once and it doesn't.

Just because you post "duh", it doesn't make you correct. Its offensive.
This is what happens to people who believe their God approves of eternal torture. They begin to resemble their false image of God. You feel you can say any offensive thing to me that you want to since your god will probably torture me forever anyway.