Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Jason0047]

If the fire is not tormenting anyone and the worm isn't eating anyone why make them last forever? Obviously they're necessary for torment to continue forever.Because it clearly doesn't say they were erased from existence but rather that them being tormented in the Lake of Fire forever is their fate which is not eradication but the end of their interface with those who inherit eternal glory.

Yes, the Bible does say they are erased by using other related words that mean the same thing as erased.

Matthew 10:28-Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: destruction)

 

[God's Truth]

No, that's not what I said.

If you were to read slowly, you would see that I had said this,

"I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city."​

I am not disagreeing with you on this point. I said the spirit does live on after the physical body dies. I posted that verse from Ecclesiastes to show that.



A LIVING soul. Not a soul in general.

Matthew 10:28 specifically says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:..."

Did you catch that?

We learn from the first half of this verse that:

#1. We are not to fear them that can kill the body.
#2. Or to fear them that cannot kill the soul.

But you say that the soul can only exist with the body. But if others are capable of killing the body, are they not also killing the soul by your definition of what makes up a soul?

Yet Jesus says, others cannot kill the soul. For Jesus is trying to tell us that we are to fear Him (Jesus) who is able to kill both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Which is destruction or annihilation of one's entire being.

I do not say what you accuse me of saying.

You did say Abraham was tortured by fire.

You are not an honest person.

 

[Jason0047]

I do not say what you accuse me of saying.

You did say Abraham was tortured by fire.

You are not an honest person.

Anyone can go back and see my original posts in order for them to witness that I did not say Abraham was tortured by an actual flame of fire physically.

For I repeated what I had written here from another thread. In other words, there are two identical posts with one them being older; confirming what I just said to you.

 

[Omniskeptical]

Anyone can go back and see my original posts in order for them to witness that I did not say Abraham was tortured by an actual flame of fire physically.

For I repeated what I had written here from another thread. In other words, there are two identical posts with one them being older; confirming what I just said to you.

Why is the rich man still alive in the Rich Man and Lazarus. Jason, can you explain that?

 

[Aimiel]

If the fire is not tormenting anyone and the worm isn't eating anyone why make them last forever?

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Aimiel]

Also, I think I did not explain it properly or clearly enough. What I am suggesting is the difference between us is that I have explained the verses that supposedly appear to support the ECT position and I have explained them from a Conditional Viewpoint (using Scripture). What you are failing to do is to explain Conditional verses from an ECT viewpoint (with Scripture). Meaning, you have to explain all of the words verses that seem to work against ECT with words such as perish, destruction, death, second death, destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, etc. (By using Scripture). This is something that I know you cannot do.

It is something you imagine I HAVE to do. You have failed to support your claims while Scripture has been given clearly explaining that ECT is the fate of those who are judged. Pretending you foolishness erases Scriptures or changes Their meanings doesn't fly.


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Aimiel]

Why is the rich man still alive in the Rich Man and Lazarus. Jason, can you explain that?

Ooh... ooh... ooh... I know this one!!!

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[GuySmiley]

Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

For key points of the passage we should take notice to is:

(a) The former things have passed away.
(b) There shall be no more pain.
(c) There shall be no more death.

In other words if we were to read these above passages as being 100% literal, then we can conclude that the former things have passed away (meaning things will not be like they are now). We can also conclude that there will be no more pain, too. Not just pain in the Eternal New Earth but no more pain PERIOD. There will be no pain whatsoever for anyone (Including those in Hell because they have been destroyed both body and soul). We can also conclude that there will be no more death, too. For the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Good point about this verse. Additionally, if death is supposed to mean separation, then at this point is everyone returned to God? In the view of ECT, does separation end then? It looks like the 'eternal' part of ECT is self defeating.

 

[God's Truth]

Anyone can go back and see my original posts in order for them to witness that I did not say Abraham was tortured by an actual flame of fire physically.

For I repeated what I had written here from another thread. In other words, there are two identical posts with one them being older; confirming what I just said to you.

I didn't say you said Abraham was on fire. You said he was tortured by fire and that is what I said you said. You are a joke if you think you are fooling anyone.

 

[Timotheos]

God made it so we all die in this life. Is that okay with you?

Why do you have to be offensive? I am merely believing what the Bible says, and it seems like you are attacking me personally. What gives?

We die because of sin. God made a way for us to have eternal life, by paying the penalty for our sins (death) by dying on the cross. When he resurrects us, we have eternal life with him. Out deaths are not permanent, like the deaths of the lost, we have eternal life.

Yes, that's okay with me. But if you smear God's name by falsely claiming that God set up a place of eternal torture, I'm not okay with that.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not torture. Is that okay with you?

 

[chrysostom]

Why do you have to be offensive?

maybe she wants you to suffer

 

[God's Truth]

maybe she wants you to suffer

Timotheos, it looks like Chrysostom remembers the offensive lie you said about those who believe the Bible that the punishment allows for no rest for ever and ever.

 

[Jason0047]

Why is the rich man still alive in the Rich Man and Lazarus. Jason, can you explain that?

Hell is real, but it is not a torture chamber. It is a place of torment as the Bible says it is.

In Luke 16:19-31: What many fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me) (Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV). So it was the heat of the flame that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out.

In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.

Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine Abraham pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. From Abraham's bosom: Agraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.

In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

 

[resurrected]

They cease to exist near the righteous.

:think: the tormented in hell that God has rejected - is He aware of them?

does He hear their cries?

"There will be no rest day or night..."

 

[God's Truth]

Why do you have to be offensive?

You must not remember what you do.

If I am offensive to you, then the truth is offensive to you.

I am merely believing what the Bible says, and it seems like you are attacking me personally. What gives?

That is a question you should ask yourself about those who believe there will be no rest for ever and ever.

We die because of sin.

We die because of sin and God does not want sinners living forever.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

God made a way for us to have eternal life, by paying the penalty for our sins (death) by dying on the cross. When he resurrects us, we have eternal life with him. Out deaths are not permanent, like the deaths of the lost, we have eternal life.

Yes, that's okay with me. But if you smear God's name by falsely claiming that God set up a place of eternal torture, I'm not okay with that.

You are the one smearing God's name.

Revelation 20:10...They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11 ...There will be no rest day or night

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not torture. Is that okay with you?

Anything God says is okay with me.

Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

 

[God's Truth]

:think: the tormented in hell that God has rejected - is He aware of them?

does He hear their cries?

Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[Jason0047]

Notice how the passage says it is the smoke of their torment. The passage does not say and their torment went up forever and ever. It was the smoke (i.e. the after effect of their destruction by fire) that ascended up. The fire consumed them and now all is left is the smoke of their own destruction. A destruction that echoed their torment.

 

[resurrected]

The fire consumed them ...

so how does that square with "they have no rest, day or night"?

 

[Caino]

God is good, God is love and so much more. Hell and torment is a creation of those who don't know the goodness of God so they are left to teach primitive fear of God. True faith is the trust in the goodness of God.

 

[rstrats]

re: "so how does that square with 'they have no rest, day or night'?"

It doesn't say how long that is to continue.