Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Ben Masada]

Look up the passages above and do your own homework (To see for yourself). In other words, the Bible does not always use the words that describe a forever or everlasting state as always in being forever. Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:11 are the only two verses that suggest an unending torment with the words "for ever and ever." (or forever) But as we see in the example of Isaiah 34:10 with the city of Edom and it's smoke ascending up forever, we learn that the word "forever" and it's related words can be used in a temporal sense. If the Bible didn't use "forever" and it's other related words in a temporal sense, then I wouldn't be arguing otherwise. Be honest with yourself, and check it out in prayer, and you will see that it is true.

Anywhere in the Bible we find the term "forever" is conditional to obedience to God's Law. The only unconditional meaning of "forever" found somewhere else in the Bible is a reference to God which is eternal. There is nothing eternal about man. Man never gained or lost the attribute of eternal life because the attribute belongs with God only.
(Genesis 3:22)

 

[God's Truth]

you wreck threads with your constant attacks without really listening to anyone

You are falsely judging. You do that because you are trying to protect your doctrine from demons.

 

[Jason0047]

Good point about this verse. Additionally, if death is supposed to mean separation, then at this point is everyone returned to God? In the view of ECT, does separation end then? It looks like the 'eternal' part of ECT is self defeating.

Nice catch. Thank you so much.

Just today, I discovered two potential new verses that support the Conditional View, as well (by pouring over the Scriptures).

The first verse is:

Jeremiah 17:18
"Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."

The day of evil is the day one is going to die (Jeremiah 18:21, 23). It is a day of wrath or death whereby only the righteous can escape it (Proverbs 11:4). Who are the righteous? Anyone who has truly trusted in God or the Messiah. For God promises within His Word that one day, death will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death will not have the victory because of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:55, 56) (Romans 7:24) (Romans 7:25 NLT) (Romans 8:1 KJV). Immortality is not something we naturally possess (As I am sure you know). For this mortal body must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53); And death will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54).

Anyways, Jeremiah wished a double destruction because he desired that the wicked men he was referring to were repaid double for their iniquity and sin (Jeremiah 16:18). However, I believe this passage has a double meaning that goes beyond Jeremiah's situation, though. When these wicked men are set to die on the day of evil, they will receive a double destruction indeed. They will face their first destruction in the first death when their body dies, and they will face their second destruction (i.e. double destruction) with the second death when they are destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

The second verse I discovered that supports CV (i.e. the Conditional View) or CEF (i.e. a Consuming Everlasting Fire) is:

Psalm 52:5 which says,
"God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah."

If one were to apply the words "destroy thee for ever" here (Which is a destruction of one's physical body), then one needs to also apply the words "destroy thee for ever" in the same way in the after life, too; For Jesus said fear him who is able to "destroy" both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). But if a person were to assert that "destroy forever" in the afterlife is talking about an everlasting torture, then they also need to say that the words: "destroy thee for ever" in Psalm 52:5 is talking about everlasting torture in relation to their first physical death, too.

If you agree or disagree; Let me know.
I am open to discussing and defending what God's Word says.

In any event, may the Lord bless you, my friend.
And thank you again.

 

[God's Truth]

Nice catch. Thank you so much.

Just today, I discovered two potential new verses that support the Conditional View, as well (by pouring over the Scriptures).

The first verse is:

Jeremiah 17:18
"Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."

The day of evil is the day one is going to die (Jeremiah 18:21, 23). It is a day of wrath or death whereby the righteous can escape it (Proverbs 11:4). However, one day, death will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death will not have the victory because of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:55, 56) (Romans 7:24) (Romans 7:25 NLT) (Romans 8:1 KJV). For this mortal body must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:25). Immortality is not something we naturally possess (As I am sure you know).

Anyways, Jeremiah wished a double destruction because he desired that they be repaid double their iniquity and sin (Jeremiah 16:18). However, this passage has a double meaning that goes beyond Jeremiah's situation, though. When this wicked man is set to die on the day of evil, this person will receive a double destruction indeed. They will face their first destruction in the first death when their body dies, and they will face their second destruction (i.e. double destruction) with the second death when they are destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

The second verse is:

Psalm 52:5 that says,
"God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah."

If one were to apply the words "destroy thee for ever" here (Which is a destruction of one's physical body), then one needs to also apply the word "destroy" in the same way in the after life, too; For Jesus said fear him who is able to "destroy" both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). But if a person were to assert that "destroy" here is talking about an everlasting destruction, then they also need to look at the words "destroy thee for ever" in the same way in relation to their first death, too.

If you agree or disagree; Let me know.
I am open to discussing and defending what God's Word says.

In any event, may the Lord bless you, my friend.
And thank you again.

Tell me why you go through so much effort to try to prove God does not mean what He says.

 

[Jason0047]

Anywhere in the Bible we find the term "forever" is conditional to obedience to God's Law. The only unconditional meaning of "forever" found somewhere else in the Bible is a reference to God which is eternal. There is nothing eternal about man. Man never gained or lost the attribute of eternal life because the attribute belongs with God only.
(Genesis 3:22)

I agree.

Thank you for the verse.

 

[GuySmiley]

Tell me why you go through so much effort to try to prove God does not mean what He says.

you wreck threads with your constant attacks without really listening to anyone

Read John 3:16 and tell me why it doesn't mean what it says.

 

[Timotheos]

The Word of God says the wicked will rise.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I agree, both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected on the final day, judgment day. But only the righteous will inherit eternal life, the wicked will perish just as the Bible says. (in John 3:16, among other places)

 

[GuySmiley]

Nice catch. Thank you so much.

Just today, I discovered two potential new verses that support the Conditional View, as well (by pouring over the Scriptures).

The first verse is:

Jeremiah 17:18
"Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."

The day of evil is the day one is going to die (Jeremiah 18:21, 23). It is a day of wrath or death whereby only the righteous can escape it (Proverbs 11:4). Who are the righteous? Anyone who has truly trusted in God or the Messiah. For God promises within His Word that one day, death will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death will not have the victory because of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:55, 56) (Romans 7:24) (Romans 7:25 NLT) (Romans 8:1 KJV). Immortality is not something we naturally possess (As I am sure you know). For this mortal body must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53); And death will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54).

Anyways, Jeremiah wished a double destruction because he desired that the wicked men he was referring to were repaid double for their iniquity and sin (Jeremiah 16:18). However, I believe this passage has a double meaning that goes beyond Jeremiah's situation, though. When these wicked men are set to die on the day of evil, they will receive a double destruction indeed. They will face their first destruction in the first death when their body dies, and they will face their second destruction (i.e. double destruction) with the second death when they are destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

I think that sounds right. I don't think its completely clear but it fits.

The second verse I discovered that supports CV (i.e. the Conditional View) or CEF (i.e. a Consuming Everlasting Fire) is:

Psalm 52:5 which says,
"God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah."

If one were to apply the words "destroy thee for ever" here (Which is a destruction of one's physical body), then one needs to also apply the words "destroy thee for ever" in the same way in the after life, too; For Jesus said fear him who is able to "destroy" both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). But if a person were to assert that "destroy forever" in the afterlife is talking about an everlasting torture, then they also need to say that the words: "destroy thee for ever" in Psalm 52:5 is talking about everlasting torture in relation to their first physical death, too.

If you agree or disagree; Let me know.
I am open to discussing and defending what God's Word says.

In any event, may the Lord bless you, my friend.
And thank you again.

Yeah I like that second one too. I bet there are a lot of verses that could be found like this where death meaning everlasting torture makes no sense.

 

[Jason0047]

Thanks GuySmiley!

:thumb:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Timotheos,

This is my first post here. I figure you've been told my position on things more than once, but here goes anyway. The soul and spirit does not die. God created them that way. So the souls that don't make it to heaven are cast into the lake of fire (our Sun) forever. Once our Sun burns out a new Sun will be provided for those souls to burn in. The Lord God says Forever, and He means it. Now few will make it to the lake of fire, but there will be some. Lucifer is already there, Satan will be going there, the Antichrist and False Prophet will be going there (Uri Geller and Jean-Pierre Girard, that's another story), that's it for now. Perhaps those 666 who sided with Uri and received powers in their right hand and foreheads will also be sent there. You've got to figure that perhaps the Pharoah would fought with Moses may be going there and also Adolf Hitler, and Mussolini. Not as many as you might think. See Rev. 20:13, 20:15. Those who don't make it in the book go also. Satan's going back to the bottomless pit (center of the earth/Hell) where it is very hot as lava, but he will end up going there too, for it is written. Everyone thinks they are on top of the earth because of gravity, so there is no bottom, but there is a center. That is why it is called the bottomless pit, or the abyss.

OK. Will go for now. Maybe only a few will be cast into the lake of fire. God's Forgiveness is Extreme, but only He knows.

God Bless You For Asking!!

MichaelCadry

 

[God's Truth]

I agree, both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected on the final day, judgment day. But only the righteous will inherit eternal life, the wicked will perish just as the Bible says. (in John 3:16, among other places)

The word perish could mean away from us. It does not have to mean never to exist anywhere.

 

[God's Truth]

Read John 3:16 and tell me why it doesn't mean what it says.

You do not have to side with those who do nothing more than personally attack me. Chrysostom is not doing much more in this thread than doing that.

I have been listening to what others say here. Your false accusations are not helping your case.

Chrysostom is a Catholic who is angry with my exposing his false doctrines. He is a thread wrecker.

You show what you are when you side with a mocker.

 

[Omniskeptical]

I don't support ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment). I think such a concept is highly un-Biblical. I believe that Hell (Hades) is an intermediate state before the Judgment that is not a place of torture (but a place of torment), and that after the Judgment, all the wicked will eventually be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See Matthew 10:28).

I apologize but Hades is an unseen and nonunderstood area, and Gehenna most have been a place in Jerusalem, where the worm didn't die, and the fire wasn't quenched.

 

[Timotheos]

The word perish could mean away from us. It does not have to mean never to exist anywhere.

I know what "perish" means. But the Bible does not ONLY say that the wicked will perish, it also says the wicked will be destroyed, and the wicked will be no more. By the way, Perish doesn't mean "away from us".

 

[Jason0047]

I apologize but Hades is an unseen and nonunderstood area, and Gehenna most have been a place in Jerusalem, where the worm didn't die, and the fire wasn't quenched.

Hades is not an unseen and non-understood area. Jesus talks about it in the real life account of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31).

As for Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire): Well, Jesus said fear not him that is able to destroy the body but cannot destroy the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to kill both soul and body in Gehenna. So was there a person destroying souls and bodies in this physical Gehenna that you speak of? How is this possible if others can kill the body but cannot kill the soul? (See Matthew 10:28).

 

[God's Truth]

I know what "perish" means. But the Bible does not ONLY say that the wicked will perish, it also says the wicked will be destroyed, and the wicked will be no more. By the way, Perish doesn't mean "away from us".

Perish also means 'to disappear'. If someone perishes in front of you, then they disappeared from you. It does not necessarily mean they are not existing anywhere else.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perish

Perish

2.
to pass away or disappear: an age of elegance that has forever perished.

 

[GuySmiley]

Perish also means 'to disappear'. If someone perishes in front of you, then they disappeared from you. It does not necessarily mean they are not existing anywhere else.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perish

Perish

2.
to pass away or disappear: an age of elegance that has forever perished.

If your wife leaves the house and you don't know where, and your kids ask "where's mom?" Do you answer "she perished?"

 

[God's Truth]

If your wife leaves the house and you don't know where, and your kids ask "where's mom?" Do you answer "she perished?"

You are not making an argument against perishing meaning disappearing. You are arguing against the dictionary.

 

[Timotheos]

You are not making an argument against perishing meaning disappearing. You are arguing against the dictionary.

You very own definition had this, which you skipped over for some reason:
1. to die or be destroyed through violence, privation, etc.: to perish in an earthquake.

Perish - Definition
suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
synonyms: die, lose one's life, be killed, fall, expire, meet one's death, be lost, lay down one's life, breathe one's last, pass away, go the way of all flesh, give up the ghost, go to glory, meet one's maker, cross the great divide; More

suffer complete ruin or destruction.
"the old regime had to perish"
synonyms: come to an end, die (away), disappear, vanish, fade, dissolve, evaporate, melt away, wither More

Also see the Monte Python Skit "Dead Parrot"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

"I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now!"

I know what perish means and it does NOT mean to continue to live forever being tortured in hell.

 

[God's Truth]

You very own definition had this, which you skipped over for some reason:
1. to die or be destroyed through violence, privation, etc.: to perish in an earthquake.

I did not skip over anything---I was showing what ELSE perish means!

"I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now!"

You must be looking in the mirror.

I know what perish means and it does NOT mean to continue to live forever being tortured in hell.

Why then does God say it?

Revelation 20:10...They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11 ...There will be no rest day or night


Seriously, tell me why then does the Bible say so?