Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[serpentdove]

"...AMR is an expert on the trinity and knows that I am trinitarian..."

:yawn: Argument Ad Verecundium (appeal to improper authority)

"...You accuse me of being modalistic."

SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?

Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link

See:

Godrulz

"You think the impeccability of Christ debate..."

:yawn: Strawman

Jesus' sinlessness is essential Christian doctrine (Jn 1:1, Heb 4:15).

"You have no credibility or integrity."

:yawn: Strawman

"You have no credibility or integrity."

:yawn: Ad hominem

"Go back to your day job. Theology is over your head."

:yawn: Argument ad populum (snob approach)

God does not sin (1 Jn 5:17, Lev 11:44, Hab 1:13). He is committed to righteousness (Ps 11:7). He has no fallen nature (Jn 1:1). He has no propensity to sin (Heb 4:15).

"Some argue that Christ could not have sinned. They believe that our Lord was tempted like we are and that He can sympathize with our weaknesses, but that He was incapable of sinning. In support of this view they argue, first, that since Christ was God, and since God cannot sin (Heb 6:17; James 1:13), it follows that Christ could not sin either. Second, since Christ has no fallen human nature, as we do, he had no propensity to sin. Finally, they observe that His temptation was only from without, not from within. Hence, He could be tempted without having the real possibility of sinning.
Other orthodox scholars believe that Christ had the ability to sin (since possible, but not actual in Jesus' life. To deny this possibility, they believe , would deny His full humanity, His ability to "sympathize with our weaknesses" (Heb 4:15), and would make His temptation into a charade. They not that while Jesus could not sin as God, nonetheless, He could have sinned (but didn't) as God, nonetheless, He could have sinned (but didn't) as man. Since Jesus had two natures, one divine and one human, a distinction must be made in what He could do in each nature. For example, He could not get tired, hungry, or sleepy as God. But He did all o these as man. His diving nature could not die. yet He died as man. Likewise, they argue, Christ could not have sinned as God but could have sinned as man (Geisler, Howe, pg. 512)."

 

[Omniskeptical]

People always say god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit. Something about the English doesn't sound right.

Perhaps, it is time to say the God a father, the God a son, and the God the holy spirit in translations.

 

[godrulz]

We go by original languages. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit is reasonable, biblical.

serpent dope:

I fully affirm the sinlessness of Christ, so throw around the logical fallacy of straw man/argumentum ad hominem at yourself.

You say I deny the sinlessness of Christ. I repeatedly say I affirm it.

Grow up.

 

[Ben Masada]

God did not like it that the Jews could sin, make a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins.

The law was not based on faith.

We must have faith to please God.

If one has faith in God, one would see that Jesus Christ is from God.

Obey Jesus' teachings, and then you will see how what I say can be true.

Paul taught what Jesus taught. If you do not understand Paul, it is because you do not understand enough about God's Truth.

Do you happen to know what Jesus used to teach? The Law and the Prophets down to the letter. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Then, in a parable about the rich man and Lazarus Jesus implied that the best way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law. Read Luke 16:29-31.

 

[Ben Masada]

In this we disagree. There are those who know... knew then, and know now.

Paul was not the only one who has seen my risen Lord... then, and present day as well.

It's interesting for us... somewhat sharing the same religion, yet still being sorta like atheists towards one another. You know their lines and opinions: deluded, thinks we are all liars. Not that I think this of you! lol... it's just we can't totally see eye to eye.

Are there any teachings in your tradition regarding Tzaddiks who after physical demise continue to help others?

By faith perhaps. By faith one has to believe because he does not know. Can you point to me who was an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection? None. And who said that Paul saw Jesus resurrected, him? But of course! Whoever lies once is always a liar.

No, I know nothing about Tzaddiks who have helped others after death. It would be against Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. That's for Catholics to make miracles after death.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yep, and there are mistranslations of Paul's writings and thoughts about the law also.

Paul was a contradiction in person about the Law.

 

[serpentdove]

"erpent dope"

:yawn: Ad hominem

"I fully affirm the sinlessness of Christ..."

What do you mean by Man when you say God-man? Heb 4:15 Did Jesus have a sin nature like every man born in Adam? Ps 51:5. If not, why not? Jn 1:1, Ac 20:28.

"...You say I deny the sinlessness of Christ. I repeatedly say I affirm it."

SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?

Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link

See:

Godrulz

 

[Omniskeptical]

Paul was a contradiction in person about the Law.

Supposedly.

 

[Omniskeptical]

We go by original languages. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit is reasonable, biblical.

And what church fathers say these things in Greek, since you claim to go by the original, and comes as another one of your crocks.

 

[godrulz]

:yawn: Ad hominem

What do you mean by Man when you say God-man? Heb 4:15 Did Jesus have a sin nature like every man born in Adam? Ps 51:5. If not, why not? Jn 1:1, Ac 20:28.

SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?

Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link

See:

Godrulz

Original sin is Augustinian/Catholic, not biblical.

Even if it was true, we all agree that Jesus was human, but did not have a sinful nature (I do not teach He does). The problem is that being dog, cat, tree, man does not make one a sinner. Having humanity/body is not the nature of sin. Sin is moral and volitional, not being/body/physical/metaphysical.

 

[godrulz]

And what church fathers say these things in Greek, since you claim to go by the original, and comes as another one of your crocks.

The Church Fathers do teach that God is triune with varying degrees of precision or understanding. The issue is still biblical, not tradition.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus is one person with two natures, not two human spirits. He is fully God, fully man. How these natures relate in detail is not revealed, but the fact that He is God incarnate is explicit.

The miracle is that the human nature of Jesus is conformed to the nature of God by the word of God as He grew up. (and that God took up residence in Jesus at His baptism.)

With His human nature being kept from sins damage to start with.

LA

 

[godrulz]

The miracle is that the human nature of Jesus is conformed to the nature of God by the word of God as He grew up. (and that God took up residence in Jesus at His baptism.)

With His human nature being kept from sins damage to start with.

LA

Sounds like the heresy of Adoptionism condemned centuries ago. He is not a human inhabited by God in some sense. He is eternally God who became man in Christ (Jn. 1:1-14; Phil. 2:5-11).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Sounds like the heresy of Adoptionism condemned centuries ago. He is not a human inhabited by God in some sense. He is eternally God who became man in Christ (Jn. 1:1-14; Phil. 2:5-11).

If Jesus is not human from birth then He could not be tempted or die.

The Bible account is of how God , that is the God and Father of Jesus, raised up a fully righteous man from the human race according to and by the ministering of His word, who would lay down His own right of birth as the heir and King of the present world, for the gaining of a greater Throne and inheritance of a better one.

Jesus was never alive before He was born.

The life was the word of God.

The making up of all of the trinity doctrine terms was because they did not know the truth and were never the servants of God and never authorized to add to Gods words as they have done.

Many follow their blindness which will not be taken away until they confess that they have not lived on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God, but on mans words.

LA

 

[godrulz]

Jn. 1:1 contradicts your view. The Word/Christ was (imperfect, continuous tense) existing eternally when there was material creation (He is uncreated Creator Jn. 1:3; Col. 1; Heb. 1). He is also God by nature (anarthrous construction=qualitative). He then becomes flesh (Jn. 1:14; Phil. 2).


From incarnation on, He is fully human, God-Man, one person with two natures. As eternal spirit of God, He cannot die, be hungry/tired/thirsty, etc. As human (trinity does not deny His humanity, but you deny His Deity), He could do all these things.

Your arguments for the humanity of Christ (that we all agree on) do not negate the dozens of other verses about His Deity.

You are in a pseudo-Christian cult mentality and need to be born again by embracing the real Jesus (YHWH) instead of generic, counterfeit, worthless jesus idol of your own making (2 Cor. 11:4; Jude 3; Gal. 1:6-9).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jn. 1:1 contradicts your view. The Word/Christ was (imperfect, continuous tense) existing eternally when there was material creation (He is uncreated Creator Jn. 1:3; Col. 1; Heb. 1). He is also God by nature (anarthrous construction=qualitative). He then becomes flesh (Jn. 1:14; Phil. 2).


From incarnation on, He is fully human, God-Man, one person with two natures. As eternal spirit of God, He cannot die, be hungry/tired/thirsty, etc. As human (trinity does not deny His humanity, but you deny His Deity), He could do all these things.

Your arguments for the humanity of Christ (that we all agree on) do not negate the dozens of other verses about His Deity.

You are in a pseudo-Christian cult mentality and need to be born again by embracing the real Jesus (YHWH) instead of generic, counterfeit, worthless jesus idol of your own making (2 Cor. 11:4; Jude 3; Gal. 1:6-9).

We then can wait and see just who is listening to Jesus and who is listening to other men for the truth.

You will need more than the RCC doctrine to survive the coming days.

LA

 

[godrulz]

We then can wait and see just who is listening to Jesus and who is listening to other men for the truth.

You will need more than the RCC doctrine to survive the coming days.

LA

My views predate the RCC church by centuries.

If you believe in the resurrection of Christ, then you must be RCC using your lame logic.

The Word of God properly translated and interpreted will judge you. You are on the wrong team.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My views predate the RCC church by centuries.

If you believe in the resurrection of Christ, then you must be RCC using your lame logic.

The Word of God properly translated and interpreted will judge you. You are on the wrong team.

Neither Jesus or the Apostles taught the RCC trinity doctrine which makes Jesus to be one person, of a three person God, who left Heaven to become a man.

Actually God will not judge me on the my understanding of a Godhead doctrine.

The Bible never refers to such a judgment, but He will judge you for condemning His children to hell on the basis of a church doctrine of the Godhead (so called by Trinitarians)

LA

 

[Timotheos]

What does any of this have to do with whether the Bible says that the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torment?

 

[Omniskeptical]

From incarnation on, He is fully human, God-Man, one person with two natures. As eternal spirit of God, He cannot die, be hungry/tired/thirsty, etc. As human (trinity does not deny His humanity, but you deny His Deity), He could do all these things.

Nestorius be your (thy) name.

Edit: I apologize, but someone please talk about what everlasting punishment is.