Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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Timotheos

New member
Omniskeptical said:
Nestorius be your (thy) name.

Edit: I apologize, but someone please talk about what everlasting punishment is.
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What is everlasting punishment? Matthew 25:46 says that the lost go to everlasting punishment. So what is everlasting punishment? Is everlasting torture the only possible punishment? Is death a punishment? I think it is. There is a punishment in some states called the "death penalty". So death is a punishment. Without eternal life, death is also everlasting. so death is everlasting punishment.

Why do people point at Matthew 25:46 as "proof" that there is eternal conscious torture in hell instead of death being the wages of sin?
 
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rstrats

Active member
Timotheos,

re: "Why do people point at Matthew 25:46 as 'proof' that there is eternal conscious torture in hell instead of death being the wages of sin?"

The only reason I can think of is because they want that to be the case.
 
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Timotheos

New member
rstrats said:
Timotheos,

re: "Why do people point at Matthew 25:46 as 'proof' that there is eternal conscious torture in hell instead of death being the wages of sin?"

The only reason I can think of is because they want that to be the case.
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It's strange, because the verse doesn't actually say that there is eternal conscious torment but I've lost count of the number of times that people will say "See!? This verse proves you wrong!! Death isn't a punishment!"
 
O

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
Timotheos said:
It's strange, because the verse doesn't actually say that there is eternal conscious torment but I've lost count of the number of times that people will say "See!? This verse proves you wrong!! Death isn't a punishment!"
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Everlasting sting of death, no longer existing, and then death, or dead here but not there. 1st or the second death, are you dieing to tell me? Slay death?
 
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Timotheos

New member
According to the Bible the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture in hell.
Romans 6:23 specifically says "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23 does not say "For the wages of sin is to be tortured alive in hell after you die".
Whoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have eternal life. The Bible says that in John 3:16 and I believe it. The options are to have eternal life or to not have eternal life. The options are NOT to have eternal life or to have eternal life in hell being tortured alive after you die.
 
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Rightglory

New member
Timotheos said:
According to the Bible the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture in hell.
Romans 6:23 specifically says "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23 does not say "For the wages of sin is to be tortured alive in hell after you die".
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the meaning is the very same. The death referred to is the Second Death, the spiritual death, the permanent spiritual separation from Christ.

Whoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have eternal life. The Bible says that in John 3:16 and I believe it. The options are to have eternal life or to not have eternal life. The options are NOT to have eternal life or to have eternal life in hell being tortured alive after you die.
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Again, the "eternal life" being referenced is life WITH Christ. Whereas, the "perish" is life apart from Christ or hell, or the Second Death, or spiritual death.

Every human being will have an eternal, physical existence. The phrase in scripture of "eternal life" always has the inference, with Christ. That was the whole purpose of God creating man and then Christ recreating man, so that man and God could have union, communion for an eternity. All men will be raised in the last day incorruptible and immortal I Cor 15:53.

The question is where will man spend eternal life, with Christ or apart from Christ.
 
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Timotheos

New member
Oh, I see. So the truth is "surely you will not die, the question is where you will spend eternity".

I don't believe that. I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
Sorry for the late reply, I only just saw your post.
 
G

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Timotheos said:
Oh, I see. So the truth is "surely you will not die, the question is where you will spend eternity".

I don't believe that. I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
Sorry for the late reply, I only just saw your post.
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There is physical, spiritual, eternal (second) death. You blur these distinctions.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rightglory said:
the meaning is the very same. The death referred to is the Second Death, the spiritual death, the permanent spiritual separation from Christ.

Again, the "eternal life" being referenced is life WITH Christ. Whereas, the "perish" is life apart from Christ or hell, or the Second Death, or spiritual death.

Every human being will have an eternal, physical existence. The phrase in scripture of "eternal life" always has the inference, with Christ. That was the whole purpose of God creating man and then Christ recreating man, so that man and God could have union, communion for an eternity. All men will be raised in the last day incorruptible and immortal I Cor 15:53.

The question is where will man spend eternal life, with Christ or apart from Christ.
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Some life?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

LA
 
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Rightglory

New member
Timotheos said:
What is everlasting punishment? Matthew 25:46 says that the lost go to everlasting punishment. So what is everlasting punishment? Is everlasting torture the only possible punishment? Is death a punishment? I think it is. There is a punishment in some states called the "death penalty". So death is a punishment. Without eternal life, death is also everlasting. so death is everlasting punishment.

Why do people point at Matthew 25:46 as "proof" that there is eternal conscious torture in hell instead of death being the wages of sin?
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Outside of your mischaracterization of hell, they are referring to the very same thing.

everlasting punishment is hell, is the Second Death, which is a spiritual, eternal separation from God.

The wages of sin is death can ONLY be a spiritual death. Man cannot die physically more than once in this life. When Christ comes again, He will raise all men to immortality and incorruptibility. Hell is as eternal, everlasting as heaven will be. I Cor 15:53

If you disagree that hell in not everlasting or eternal, then heaven is also not everlasting and eternal.
 
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Timotheos

New member
Rightglory said:
Outside of your mischaracterization of hell, they are referring to the very same thing.

everlasting punishment is hell, is the Second Death, which is a spiritual, eternal separation from God.

The wages of sin is death can ONLY be a spiritual death. Man cannot die physically more than once in this life. When Christ comes again, He will raise all men to immortality and incorruptibility. Hell is as eternal, everlasting as heaven will be. I Cor 15:53

If you disagree that hell in not everlasting or eternal, then heaven is also not everlasting and eternal.
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I agree that both heaven and hell are lasting and eternal. I disagree with you, and I agree with Jesus on what happens to those who are sent to Hell. Jesus said that both the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell (Gehenna).

The Bible says nothing whatsoever about a so called "spiritual death".
In which verse do you see "spiritual death"? The Bible also doesn't say anyone can be "eternally separated" from God. In fact, the Bible says just the opposite. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." So Hell is NOT separation from God, since God is also there, according to Psalm 139:8

So why do you say "your mischaracterization of hell"? I merely believe what the Bible says. That a person can only have eternal life in Christ, and those who reject Him will perish.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
rstrats said:
Timotheos,

re: "Why do people point at Matthew 25:46 as 'proof' that there is eternal conscious torture in hell instead of death being the wages of sin?"

The only reason I can think of is because they want that to be the case.
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Both are wrong ideas. Either the eternal conscious torture in hell-fire and death as the wages of sin. There is nothing eternal about man but death which is due man because he has been born. Evidence? Babies have never committed a single sin and they die all the same because they have been born.

According to the allegorical Genesis account of Creation Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) It means that man was not granted with the attribute of eternity which belongs to God only.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Timotheos said:
What does any of this have to do with whether the Bible says that the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torment?
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The Bible neither says that the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torments. At least not the Bible that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. One dies because he or she has been born, and the only thing eternal about man is death.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
Both are wrong ideas. Either the eternal conscious torture in hell-fire and death as the wages of sin. There is nothing eternal about man but death which is due man because he has been born. Evidence? Babies have never committed a single sin and they die all the same because they have been born.

According to the allegorical Genesis account of Creation Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) It means that man was not granted with the attribute of eternity which belongs to God only.
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Babies have sinned, that's why they die !

Posted from the TOL App!
 
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Timotheos

New member
Ben Masada said:
The Bible neither says that the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torments. At least not the Bible that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. One dies because he or she has been born, and the only thing eternal about man is death.
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Actually the Bible does say that the wages of sin is death. Look up Romans 6:23, which says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

For Old Testament, look up Ezekiel 18:4 which says "The soul who sins shall die", and Genesis records God's words to Adam, Because you have eaten the fruit which I told you not to eat, to dust you will return.
(See Genesis 3:17-19)

If a person goes to Jesus Christ, they can receive eternal life. He will return and resurrect them and cause them to live forever. If a person rejects Jesus Christ, they don't get to live forever. Not in Hell being tortured alive or anywhere else. They will perish, just as the Bible says. But anyone who comes to Jesus Christ can have eternal life. It is His gift to humanity. All who will receive it.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Timotheos said:
Actually the Bible does say that the wages of sin is death. Look up Romans 6:23, which says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
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That's your Bible, not the one Jesus always referred to as the Word of God. Jesus never even dreamed that the NT would ever rise.

For Old Testament, look up Ezekiel 18:4 which says "The soul who sins shall die", and Genesis records God's words to Adam, Because you have eaten the fruit which I told you not to eat, to dust you will return. (See Genesis 3:17-19)
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That in Ezekiel 18:4 was to explain a proverb in the Land of Israel that no longer was true: That "The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge" meaning that the children would pay for the sins of their parents and not that death would be the salary of sin. Otherwise, how would you explain the death of babies who have never sinned? In truth, they could not die for the sins of their parents. (Jer. 31:30) And with regards to Genesis 3:17-19, you have rather confirmed my view as true that one returns to the dust because he has been born aka formed out of the dust. (Gen. 2:7; Eccl. 7:12)

If a person goes to Jesus Christ, they can receive eternal life. He will return and resurrect them and cause them to live forever. If a person rejects Jesus Christ, they don't get to live forever. Not in Hell being tortured alive or anywhere else. They will perish, just as the Bible says. But anyone who comes to Jesus Christ can have eternal life. It is His gift to humanity. All who will receive it.
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Jesus was a loyal Jew. Do you think he would so blatantly contradict the Scriptures? I don't think so. According to Genesis 3:22 Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that eternity belongs with God only and that man was denied that attribute. Then you can't go to Jesus because he is dead. Only faith is what keeps Christians under the illusion that he is alive somewhere in Heaven. According to his Faith which was Judaism, a man once dead will never return. (Job 10:21; II Samuel 12:23)
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Rightglory

New member
Timotheos said:
I agree that both heaven and hell are lasting and eternal. I disagree with you, and I agree with Jesus on what happens to those who are sent to Hell. Jesus said that both the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell (Gehenna).
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you have developed a contradiction. Hell is either eternal, or one is destroyed, which do you want?
But Matt 12:5 states that Jesus has power to cast both body and soul into hell.

The Bible says nothing whatsoever about a so called "spiritual death".
In which verse do you see "spiritual death"? The Bible also doesn't say anyone can be "eternally separated" from God. In fact, the Bible says just the opposite. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." So Hell is NOT separation from God, since God is also there, according to Psalm 139:8
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sin is death, spiritual death. It is severance of the relationship with God. The second death is such a death, a spiritual, relational separation. The second death is an eternal relational (spiritual) separation from God.
However, you are correct in that God cannot never be apart from any of His creation. Hell is part of His creation. As long as man exists, God must uphold all things by His Grace. This is why the Church Fathers explained hell as the love of God being showered upon all men. But it is man that perceives it as blessedness or hell fire. In hell man will be unable to return that love.

So why do you say "your mischaracterization of hell"? I merely believe what the Bible says. That a person can only have eternal life in Christ, and those who reject Him will perish.
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But perish is not annihilation, it is speaking about the relationship. You have already agreed that hell is eternal, so perish cannot mean annihilation.
Also God did not create man, nor Christ redeem man and the world, only to have it be destroyed. Death will no longer exist, that is the physical kind or the destruction of our existence. Christ will raise all men in the last day to immortality and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:53.
 
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