Arthur Brain
Well-known member
How have they sinned exactly? For crying too much? Having the audacity to vent bodily waste into a diaper?
You're just unreal.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
How have they sinned exactly? For crying too much? Having the audacity to vent bodily waste into a diaper?
You're just unreal.
No, they are not sinners. :dizzy: But given the time and opportunity to sin; they will sin. They inherited a sin nature from their parents (Ps 51:5).
They do cry when nothing's wrong. :think: You could call them little liars (Ex 20:16).
beloved57
Well-known member
I have explained how and why they sinned many times in my threads !
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beloved57
Well-known member
No, they are not sinners. :dizzy: But given the time and opportunity to sin; they will sin. They inherited a sin nature from their parents (Ps 51:5).
They do cry when nothing's wrong. :think: You could call them little liars (Ex 20:16).
Babies are sinners, that is why they die !
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What, do they puke up too much and keep people awake? I don't read your threads as they're incredibly boring...
beloved57
Well-known member
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well explain it again then...shouldn't be difficult...
beloved57
Well-known member
The Bible does not say that.
You chose one part to support your erroneous view.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.(lake of fire)
LA
Yes, that's my Bible, the inspired word of God. Both Old and New Testaments. And they agree. The Old Testament predicted the arrival of Jesus Christ, and the New Testament confirms His arrival. The New Testament confirms what is written in the Old Testament. Jesus did not contradict the Old Testament.
Furthermore, Jesus is NOT dead, as you claim. He returned to life and walk right out of the tomb they put Him in.
I'm sorry that you don't believe in the resurrection, because Jesus Christ is our opportunity for immortality. The Bible says that only God is immortal, but He can adopt us as His own children, He give us the right to be the children of God, and as His children, He gives us the gift of immortality, eternal life.
This is Christianity, if you are not a Christian, then this doesn't apply to you. You may become a Christian if you want to.
There is no contradiction. Hell is eternal and it is the place where the wicked are destroyed and remain destroyed forever. This is what Jesus Christ said. "Be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Hell". You are simply mistaken. I suggest that you start to believe what Jesus said.
Matthew 12:5 says "Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?" Matthew 10:28 says that the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell.
Where do you get this from? Where is this written in the Bible? What Chapter and Verse? The Bible never says that sin is "Spiritual Death". The Bible never says that sin is separation from God, and the Bible never says that "the second death is an eternal relational (spiritual) separation from God". The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, that those who reject God will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be completely consumed by fire.
Yes, I am correct that God cannot be apart from His creation, that is why the doctrine of eternal separation is wrong.
What do you mean by "annihilation"? Do you mean death? destruction? perishing? to perish? Are you saying that "perish" is not "perish"? Can anyone perish and remain unperished?
No. It isn't. The Bible never says "The wages of sin is the death of the relationship of the person with God". You are saying things that are unBiblical, but VERY popular with the church crowd.
Yes, Hell is eternal, and according to Jesus Christ, it is the place where the Body and Soul are destroyed. perish actually does mean perish. It means the destruction of the Body and Soul. According to Jesus Christ this occurs in Hell.
He created us, and He redeemed us on the cross freeing us from the curse of sin which is death. Those who are raised and have rejected Him will go to their second death. They will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, they will not have immortality and incorruptibility. That is a gift which is only offered to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible says over and over that those who reject God will not inherit eternal life.
Rightglory
New member
And just how does this help explain your view. I fully agree with the texts you cited. They fullly support what I stated.
Rightglory
New member
Timotheos,
If you think I an still incorrect, find some evidence that the Church has ever held the belief that God will destory those in hell?
That fire you are speaking about is described by Church Fathers as God's love be showered upon them. Because they cannot return that love it becomes as a fire. Again, find the evidence that the words you are misunderstanding or putting different meanings on them has always been the meaning of those words. I think you will find that they are anthropomorphisms, the same as the "wrath" of God.
It has been biblical since the beginning. I have never read or heard of God actually destroying His creatures, except for the false teaching of annihilism. You have apparently attached yourself to a false teaching.
I fully believe what He says. God is not in the business of destroying His creation, surely, not creatures that bear His Image. Why would He need to destroy them. I Cor 15:53 says that He will raise all the dead to immortality and incorruptibility. Why would He even raise them just to destroy them?
If you think I an still incorrect, find some evidence that the Church has ever held the belief that God will destory those in hell?
So, which one is correct? You pick "destroy" and nothing in scripture supports it. See above comments.
the term "spiritual death" is a theological term that describes the separation that sin has between God and man. It also the definition of the Second death. In scripture there are two deaths, one is physical, one is spiritual, it also has two resurrections to balance them, one is physical, one is spiritual.
That fire you are speaking about is described by Church Fathers as God's love be showered upon them. Because they cannot return that love it becomes as a fire. Again, find the evidence that the words you are misunderstanding or putting different meanings on them has always been the meaning of those words. I think you will find that they are anthropomorphisms, the same as the "wrath" of God.
this is why your view is incorrect because it creates a huge contradiction with the rest of scripture. If it is wrong, then all men are IN Christ, all men have an automatic spiritual connection with Christ, even unbelievers. In other words, there is really no difference between a believer and an unbeliever with your definition.
One needs to understand that God created man in order to have an eternal union and communion with man. The perfect man is one who has body and soul, but is unified with Christ, is sharing in His Divine nature. When man rejects this union, God is NOT going to annihilate him, but will accept man's decision of not having a spiritual relationship with God. That is perishing because that man will never be complete. He will never be the perfect human being. God is not in the business of destroying His creatures, He will continue to love them and that man has chosen to not be in union with Him will suffer the eternal consequences of that choice.
If one understands scripture correctly then it is correct. There can ONLY be one other death that is applicable to man. Man cannot die physically twice. We live in a state of decay, corruption, and suseptible to death in this life. So, sin cannot cause us to die physically. If it did you would have been dead a very long time ago after your first sin. However, it does apply to the spiritual separation from God, Death, the second death, the separation man will suffer in hell spiritually from God.
It has been biblical since the beginning. I have never read or heard of God actually destroying His creatures, except for the false teaching of annihilism. You have apparently attached yourself to a false teaching.
I have never read anyone that believes as you do. However, if you think it is the meaning of those words in contradiction to other statements, give the evidence that it has always been believed as you are stating it.
First, eternal life as used in scripture has the unstated meaning of being IN Christ. That was the whole purpose of God creating man and Christ redeeming man, to have union with Him. But unbelievers also have eternal life, an eternal physical existence. All the dead will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. God does not annihilate His most prized creatures, those that bear His Image.
Do you believe that babies who die before having sinned go to hell?
beloved57
Well-known member
beloved57
Well-known member
Ben Masada
New member
And of course, you want me to take your word for it. That's kind of hard to. Start by quoting to me where in the only Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God that it predicted the arrival of Jesus.
I am quite sure that Jesus did not contradict the Tanach as he was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism. The contradictions are in there because the writers were Hellenists former disciples of Paul whose main intent was to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Yes, I understand when you say, "This is Christianity" but you are using a Jew to preach against Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus. The point of my discussions is to stand in defense of the Faith of Jesus.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
LA