Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

I read once that the white of the pearl actually contains all the colors. I've not been able to verify that once reading it, but we find the pearl upon each of the gates... as already shown above in Rev 21:21

Well... white DOES contain all colors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White

Seems that once a person arrives at those gates and goes in that the covenant has become obvious/transparent to one's consciousness... as you have already said.

It is obvious what is known and what others know. All are transparent in His Presence. What we will know in Glory cannot even be expressed here much less comprehended were it expressed.

 

[Levolor]

Well... white DOES contain all colors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White

Thank you!

It is obvious what is known and what others know.

All are transparent in His Presence.

What we will know in Glory cannot even be expressed here much less comprehended were it expressed.

Yes, yes and indeed.

Merry Christmas, Aimiel~

 

[Krsto]

But you insist that God will roast his children forever and ever to no end. This is insanity, let alone a blight against the good, wise and merciful nature of 'God'.



The NJKV does just fine, an improvement of the KJV in various ways. We might also note that the KJV is NOT the most accurate translation that exists, so I beg to differ with the 'KJV-only' folks.



I believe we've already covered that the greek word 'aion' refers to an 'age' or indefinite period of time, and does not necessarily mean a never ending duration of time. Hence the term 'forever and ever' in the English language does not approximate the true meaning of the original language.

Honest Questions and Answers about 'Hell'



All comes under the ultimacy and government of God's eternal justice and mercy, mediated by his eternal love and wisdom. Can anyone fathom his infinite love? Who can measure it?



But note that according to the law of compensation (karma)...each will only suffer the penalty for his own sins, not more or less severe, and will owe the debt that is commensurate to the crime committed, having to 'do time' only in proportion to that sin, for such is the law in its perfect fairness, measure for measure. Again we call this 'karmic inter-action'...the 'law of compensation'; 'law of justice', 'cause/effect', 'law of self-responsibility', etc. - it all refers back to 'action' which is what 'karma' means, and its accompanying effects.

'Fire' is also a metaphor or symbol for the purifying flame of God's holy presence, which incinerates or transforms all that is not of God into only pure God-substance, where all the dross is burned away, leaving on the pure gold of divinity, or divine potential of the soul intact. Does he not baptize us in the holy spirit and fire? - such is a regenerating/revitalizing/purifying flame!



Yes, the light of truth and justice blazes on forever.



Aumen. The law is love itself, the fundamental principle behind all relations. It is primary (first principle), while all else is secondary (relative).

"Love God and your brother as you love and value yourself". - "Do this and you will live (have eternal life, by satisfying the law).



To 'see' and 'hear' is everything. A pure heart is indispensable with a receptive spirit. - this is why only the pure in heart see 'God'. Purity enables true 'seeing', and it arises from the essence of pure 'being'.


pj

Once again the spiritualist who makes no claim to being biblical is in fact more biblical than most of the Evangelicals who think they are.

Merry Christmas Freelight!

 

[freelight]

The larger cosmogony......

The larger cosmogony......

Once again the spiritualist who makes no claim to being biblical is in fact more biblical than most of the Evangelicals who think they are.

Merry Christmas Freelight!

Hello Krsto,

Merry Christmas to you and all,

This thread has been quite a 'merry-go-round',....because of the elements thus covered and the points of 'difference' concerning the meanings or 'words', their terms and descriptions, further reflected thru so many translation-filters plus the intellectual/spiritual conditions of the 'minds' considering the subject and their current conception of 'God'.

These have been pretty much covered already if readers wish to seriously consider ALL the factors involved in properly assessing the subject, so that it is mostly just a continually rehashing of the same 'counter-points' and 'assumptions'....(enter: hamsterwheel).

Anyways,....what is first to be considered is the fundamental principle and law of existence itself, which is rooted in 'God' itself, who is Life, Love and Light,.....the source of all substance and form in the universe and the immortal Soul from which all other souls have sprung and are ever sustained, in time and eternity. If this great OverSoul is Love in its very nature, and its will is the intention of that nature or infinite intelligence to carry out its plan and purpose,..then the processes which carry life along do so by immutable laws which sustain and inspire creation along its evolutional path. There is a greater master-plan in the context of the cosmos, then condemning a small group of rebels to an eternity of firey torments, while the saved enjoy an eternity of 'life' in some heaven-realm or earth-like paradise. There is more involved here, than the black n white suppositions sprung from literal texts which when 'assumed' violate the deeper fundamental principles of nature and laws of creation.

Therefore, to me a universal impetus of life being one of 'eternal progression' and 'evolution' is much more sensible and in accord to the laws of cyclic nature (birth, death, rebirth). Torment only exists in those minds bound by fear or suffering their own fate of karma imposed by their own transgressions, but these are absolved when the soul returns to the law and the path of harmonic unity with source, and that divine principle within which fulfills itself by its activity.


pj

 

[Aimiel]

If you simply read The Bible and understand dictionary definitions of words the meaning is clear: ECT is Biblical.

 

[freelight]

touche'

touche'

If you simply read The Bible and understand dictionary definitions of words the meaning is clear: ECT is Biblical.

As we've discussed so far here,...only if you take the English words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' literally, without seeing that the greek words 'aion' and 'aionios' indicates an 'indefinite duration of time', an 'age' ...and not necessarily a never ending duration. We've covered this before here and elsewhere.

Until the 'language', 'meaning' and contextual considerations are acknowledged here, the 'facial' acceptance of ECT might be believed,..but even beyond the language facts,...the principle of it is insane, and unbecoming of a true, just and merciful 'God'. - it may however be the 'god' of one's own concensus and 'image', distorted as that may be.



pj

 

[God's Truth]

As we've discussed so far here,...only if you take the English words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' literally, without seeing that the greek words 'aion' and 'aionios' indicates an 'indefinite duration of time', an 'age' ...and not necessarily a never ending duration. We've covered this before here and elsewhere.

Until the 'language', 'meaning' and contextual considerations are acknowledged here, the 'facial' acceptance of ECT might be believed,..but even beyond the language facts,...the principle of it is insane, and unbecoming of a true, just and merciful 'God'. - it may however be the 'god' of one's own concensus and 'image', distorted as that may be.



pj

When we are living on the new earth in our new bodies with God, we won't remember those who did not get saved.

I am going to believe what the scriptures say, and that is that their worm does not die. If their worm does not die, then how can they no longer exist?

So far, none of you that say ECT is false has proven that the spirit dies. None of you has shown were Jesus meant eternal was temporary.

 

[rstrats]

God's Truth,

re: "...and that is that their worm does not die."


So you're saying that in addition to the unsaved being given eternal life, that there are worms that are also going to be given eternal life?

 

[Aimiel]

As we've discussed so far here,...only if you take the English words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' literally, without seeing that the greek words 'aion' and 'aionios' indicates an 'indefinite duration of time', an 'age' ...and not necessarily a never ending duration. We've covered this before here and elsewhere.

Until the 'language', 'meaning' and contextual considerations are acknowledged here, the 'facial' acceptance of ECT might be believed,..but even beyond the language facts,...the principle of it is insane, and unbecoming of a true, just and merciful 'God'. - it may however be the 'god' of one's own concensus and 'image', distorted as that may be.



pj

Sorry, but that's exactly what you believe in: a god of your own choosing. I choose to believe Him as He is rather than make Him over in my own image.

 

[Ardima]

Sorry, but that's exactly what you believe in: a god of your own choosing. I choose to believe Him as He is rather than make Him over in my own image.

You are the one choosing to make God into what you want. We were made in the image of God; and though it be a weak image of Him, we can look at ourselves and discover a greater understanding of Him through that image. And even greater still if His Spirit has replaced ours.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, it's too bad God never gave any instructions as to his preference with regard to holy days. But then humans are free to do their own thing anyway and will be rewarded according.

And I'm sure you have studied all the NT scriptures commanding Sunday observance. After all you said, "I've been trying to examine all of my beliefs to check to see if they are in alignment with the Bible."

Which scripture is it that influenced you the most with regard to Sunday observance?

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you with regard to a religious festival or a Sabbath day.

Since there is a worship celebration in my town on Sunday, I go on Sunday. If the worship were scheduled for a different day, then I would go on a different day. The day of the week doesn't matter any more that what I eat or drink. For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of observing a particular day but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17

The day of the week doesn't matter.

 

[serpentdove]

"You and I both agree on essential doctrine of God/Christology."

You are a modalist (Eph 4:14). :reals: I am a Christian (Jn 1:1, Heb 4:15). oly:

"We both strongly affirm that God is perfect, holy, sinless and that the God-Man, Jesus, is also sinless (always was, always will be)."

SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link

See:

Godrulz

Had Adam not sinned, could or would Jesus have sinned? Ge 1:31, Ps 51:5

 

[jamie]

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you with regard to a religious festival or a Sabbath day.

Ah yes, and you are assuming that includes Jesus Christ.

Do not let anyone judge you with regard to a religious festival or a Sabbath day including Jesus Christ who loves the traditions of men.

Why would we let anyone other than Jesus Christ through his NT word judge us with regard to anything? No, I mean anything. Ok, so Jesus told the Jews of his day to be sure to go to church on Sunday and by all means don't forget Halloween, Christmas, and Easter.

I believe this instruction is found in Matthew but I don't remember the verse off hand. But if you need a verse just make one up like the rest of your theory.

 

[Timotheos]

Ah yes, and you are assuming that includes Jesus Christ.

Do not let anyone judge you with regard to a religious festival or a Sabbath day including Jesus Christ who loves the traditions of men.

Why would we let anyone other than Jesus Christ through his NT word judge us with regard to anything? No, I mean anything. Ok, so Jesus told the Jews of his day to be sure to go to church on Sunday and by all means don't forget Halloween, Christmas, and Easter.

I believe this instruction is found in Matthew but I don't remember the verse off hand. But if you need a verse just make one up like the rest of your theory.

Whoa Whoa Whoa! Wait a minute!

I never said that Jesus said to worship on Sunday. I said that the particular day of the week doesn't matter. You asked Me what verse influenced me the most, and I showed you the one that says "don't let anyone judge you regarding the Sabbath". So don't judge me concerning the Sabbath, and I won't judge you concerning the Sabbath. The doors of the place I go for corporate worship are open on Sunday. That's why I worship on Sunday. Plus I have that day off, so it's a little easier. If Monday were the day that everyone else wanted to worship God, then I would ask my boss for a schedule change, and I would take Mondays off for worship and work Sunday instead. Okay? What part of "The day of the week doesn't matter to me" doesn't make sense here?

If you want to start an argument about the Sabbath, start another thread. Don't expect me to participate though. Go worship God any day you want, and allow me the same freedom. It's prolly better to worship God everyday of the week, so get off my case about Sunday. I never told you that you had to do anything on Sunday.

 

[Aimiel]

You are the one choosing to make God into what you want.

Just because I've read and believe The Word of God?!? It's pretty clear. Reading It isn't confusing.

We were made in the image of God; and though it be a weak image of Him, we can look at ourselves and discover a greater understanding of Him through that image. And even greater still if His Spirit has replaced ours.

Yes, but His Word is clear about things which we cannot see and we have to take Him at His Word for them. The Word is quite clear on the things that we need to know. We know that ECT is the destiny of all whose names are not found in His Book of Life. That much is crystal clear. :thumb:

 

[Timotheos]

no post

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If you simply read The Bible and understand dictionary definitions of words the meaning is clear: ECT is Biblical.

You base your claim on the false idea that when people die they are really conscious and fully alive, also on -

when people are raised from their death, where they really are not dead , to the last judgment and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second death, that they are not really dead but they are still alive.

Why would any sane person believe anything you say at all?

LA

 

[godrulz]

You are a modalist (Eph 4:14). :reals: I am a Christian (Jn 1:1, Heb 4:15). oly:

SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link

See:

Godrulz

Had Adam not sinned, could or would Jesus have sinned? Ge 1:31, Ps 51:5

I absolutely defend trinitarianism on many sites against Arianism, polytheism, Sabellianism (modalism, Oneness, monarchianism, etc.).

You are an idiot that likes straw men ad hominem attacks because you cannot think.:argue: I am a Christian who worships the triune God, but rejects some of your ideas gleaned from your favorite Calvinistic authors.

 

[Ardima]

Just because I've read and believe The Word of God?!? It's pretty clear. Reading It isn't confusing.

I would go deep into thing here, but I do not wish to hijack this thread. I will say that etymology is very important when reading the Bible. Translations are interpretations of each word or even paraphrases and many meanings were not what they are today.

Yes, but His Word is clear about things which we cannot see and we have to take Him at His Word for them. The Word is quite clear on the things that we need to know. We know that ECT is the destiny of all whose names are not found in His Book of Life. That much is crystal clear. :thumb:

It is not as clear as what you might think. There is not one single verse that clearly states that ECT is correct. Actually, that doctrine is based off of two things. The fist being the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul. Which we know is not biblical (1 Timothy 6:16).

Second, it is based on deductive reasoning, not actual proof texts (such as the pre-trib rapture. Again I do not wish to hijack this thread).

The problem I see today with most Christians is that they have a biblical centered theology instead of a God/Christ centered theology.

Just because you and thousands of other christians claim that a doctrine is found in the Bible does not mean it is correct. It matters not that it is in the Bible; rather, it matters only that it is in union with God's very character. If it is not, I dare say it isnt the text that is wrong, but the translation and our humanistic perspectives that are at fault.

We need to get away from the book knowledge of God and truly experience the personal relationship that our Creator wishes to have with us: for an ounce of knowledge of God is worth more than a ton of knowledge about God.

Know Him first, that He is love and you will see the Bible with a totally different perspective. Your wall of pride will deminish (for we will never get rid of it completely as long as we remain flesh and blood), and the Spirit will show you many things, even the deep thing of Christ.

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[jamie]

I never said that Jesus said to worship on Sunday. I said that the particular day of the week doesn't matter. You asked Me what verse influenced me the most, and I showed you the one that says "don't let anyone judge you regarding the Sabbath".

Yes, you made the comment, "I've been trying to examine all of my beliefs to check to see if they are in alignment with the Bible." And I asked which verse influenced you the most with regard to Sunday observance.

So your answer to my question is Colossians 2:16.

:sigh: