Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Zeke

Well-known member
Compared to the trinity, it is a peripheral waste of time. Those arguing for the unbiblical view ignore evidence.

Religious evidence hardly makes for factual substance, as we see in the religion you promote as being historically accurate, and requires blind acceptance by faith in oracles of mythology as being literal journals of fact.

Need some milk with those theological camels you have been swallowing all your life?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
free tickets.....

free tickets.....

I wonder why amr is avoiding this thread

Too many 'heavyweights' here :crackup:

Plus the subject has been somewhat 'exhausted'. The merry-go-round can be fun the first few twirls, but after awhile things can get a bit dizzy :)




pj
 

God's Truth

New member
Lets pretend your right, Paul wasn't saved, would you condemn him to eternal damnation even though he couldn't control his flesh?

Paul was speaking of himself BEFORE he was saved. Paul is saved. A person is condemned for not believing in Jesus. A person can be condemned for saying they believe in Jesus but still living in sin. A person who has a hard time stopping sin but wants to...Satan will have his way with their body, but their spirit still has a chance to be saved when Jesus comes.
 

God's Truth

New member
I'm not a hypocrite. you have the right to reply with your beliefs, I don't believe that you have the right to insult me and make up lies about me.
YOU are the one who insults those who believe that the punishment does not end.

I do accept what is spiritual, even though I do not agree with you.
You do not accept what is spiritual. You do not even believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.

Believing that the wages of sin is death does not make my doctrine a "doctrine of death" any more than yours is a doctrine of torture.
You have a doctrine of death because you do not believe in the life of the spirit.

I believe that God gives eternal life to those who put their faith in Him for the removal of sins. This makes my doctrine the doctrine of LIFE. It is sin that causes death. I asked you who put you in charge because you proclaimed to the world that "Tim does not accept what is spiritual".
You proclaimed to the world that you do not believe in what is spiritual. You do not even acknowledge that Jesus was speaking Spiritually when he said those living were dead.


That is simply untrue. God's Worshipers worship Him in spirit and in truth, and that is how I worship God. There is no verse in the Bible that says "the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever". According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death and the gift to those who put their trust in God is eternal life in Christ. That is the truth according to the Gospel. Please stop lying about me by saying that I do not believe what is spiritual. Just post whatever evidence from the Bible that you can find for your doctrine, and I will accept the truth of the Bible. Name calling is unnecessary and proves nothing.
You are the one who keeps lying about me. I keep giving you scripture that says the torture is forever and you keep saying I gave no scripture. You have also lied about me with other things.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Religious evidence hardly makes for factual substance, as we see in the religion you promote as being historically accurate, and requires blind acceptance by faith in oracles of mythology as being literal journals of fact.
The Bible IS historically correct, and not one single stated historic fact has ever been disproved. The facts found in the Gospels are clear and substantiated by the evidence of the agreement between them. Try reading up a bit more before you make inaccurate comments.

Try reading this summary of Dr. Simon Greenleaf's book: "The Testimony of the Evangelists." http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html

The book is available at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Testimony-Evangelists-Examined-Evidence/dp/0825427479
 

Timotheos

New member
YOU are the one who insults those who believe that the punishment does not end.
I do not believe that I have ever insulted you. If I have insulted you, I apologize. Would you please point out any actual insults so that I can properly repent of them? I do not believe that I have ever insulted you.

You do not accept what is spiritual. You do not even believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.
I do accept what is spiritual, I've told you that before. I believe in Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and in eternal life for those who put their faith in him. I do not believe that the dead are alive because the Bible does not say that they are.

You have a doctrine of death because you do not believe in the life of the spirit.
I believe what the Bible says. You may call it whatever you wish.
If you believe what I am saying reeks of death, you are not alone in believing that. They said the same thing to Paul: "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." However, if you really do believe the message of Life in Christ is a "doctrine of death", then you are placing yourself in their camp, the ones that Paul said are perishing.

You proclaimed to the world that you do not believe in what is spiritual. You do not even acknowledge that Jesus was speaking Spiritually when he said those living were dead.
What are you talking about? The Bible says "Then he told them plainly, Lazarus is dead". I believe the Bible, no matter how much you want to make it appear that I don't.


You are the one who keeps lying about me. I keep giving you scripture that says the torture is forever and you keep saying I gave no scripture. You have also lied about me with other things.
I have not lied about you. I asked you to show me a scripture that says "The lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever", and you haven't done that, even though you repeatedly claimed that you did. I haven't lied about you in any other way either.

Look, is there any scripture that says this or not?
"The lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever".
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Too many 'heavyweights' here :crackup:

Plus the subject has been somewhat 'exhausted'. The merry-go-round can be fun the first few twirls, but after awhile things can get a bit dizzy :)




pj

are you suggesting that amr is just a lot of hot air?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
this is really simple guys
either
God wants you to suffer eternally
or
God can do nothing about it

which is it?
 

God's Truth

New member
are you suggesting that amr is just a lot of hot air?

AMR is steeped in false doctrines.

He is a Calvinist.

He perverts the scriptures.

He says Jesus did not die for all. He says we cannot get faith after hearing. He does not believe the warnings in the Bible. He believes God saves unbelievers and those who hate Him.
 

God's Truth

New member
I do not believe that I have ever insulted you. If I have insulted you, I apologize. Would you please point out any actual insults so that I can properly repent of them? I do not believe that I have ever insulted you.
If you are sincere, why don’t you go look for the insults and repent of them?
I do accept what is spiritual, I've told you that before. I believe in Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and in eternal life for those who put their faith in him. I do not believe that the dead are alive because the Bible does not say that they are.
You do not accept what is spiritual. It does not matter if you deny it. I am going by what you say about what you believe and what you do not believe. You do not believe in the life of our spirit. You do not acknowledge that Jesus said there were those who are alive but are dead. This is spiritual.
I believe what the Bible says. You may call it whatever you wish.
I believe what the Bible says.
If you believe what I am saying reeks of death, you are not alone in believing that. They said the same thing to Paul: "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life."
I am not perishing. You are doing your evil insulting again.
However, if you really do believe the message of Life in Christ is a "doctrine of death", then you are placing yourself in their camp, the ones that Paul said are perishing.
You are speaking deceit. You know I believe in the message that saves, just not your dead doctrine.
What are you talking about? The Bible says "Then he told them plainly, Lazarus is dead". I believe the Bible, no matter how much you want to make it appear that I don't.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
I have not lied about you. I asked you to show me a scripture that says "The lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever", and you haven't done that, even though you repeatedly claimed that you did. I haven't lied about you in any other way either.

Look, is there any scripture that says this or not?
"The lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever".
I gave you the scriptures.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”


Read this scripture:
John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Did you read it? So now, tell me, are the wicked going to be raised to life at the resurrection or not? Yes, they are. So then, why does John say what he does in John 3:36? John says that because a life without Jesus is no life.
You do not consider what is spiritual.
 

Levolor

New member
How do spirits die? How does anyone die in the lake of fire if death is destroyed?

Was anything mentioned about spirits? No.

Or, are you one who believes that the soul and the spirit is the same thing? Well, I don't. The bible also notes differences. One of which is that the spirit returns to God who gave it. (paraphrase Ecclesiastes 12:7)

So, with that verse in mind, there is no dying of spirits.

Yet! Souls do. Jesus intimated that they can and do: And fear ye not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him, which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

No matter what, the soul that sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Just believe what God says in the scriptures. The scriptures say forever and ever.

I do believe what God says. I am so interested in what God says that I am willing to reach back into antiquity to learn what the phrases and words said then actually mean rather than put a 21st century spin on it.

So again, the verses that were in question, Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10, are speaking of a punishment to be endured with an unknown, by us, amount of time or duration. Not your 21st century idea of what they mean.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
this is really simple guys
either
God wants you to suffer eternally
or
God can do nothing about it

which is it?

False dichotomy.....God does not want us to suffer eternally. He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter) and takes no delight in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18).


God has done something final about it, the death and resurrection of Christ=gospel (power of God).

The third option is that God does not want us to suffer, has done everything He could to prevent it, and now the ball is in our court to receive or reject His free gift of eternal/abundant life. He holds the keys of death and hell, but will not coerce reciprocal love relationships.
 
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