Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

educate beyond your 'dogma'.......

educate beyond your 'dogma'.......

People condemn themselves.

That's an assumption fraught with various problems philosophically, beyond what you believe since you have a misconception of 'eternal/everlasting punishment' - please research the words 'aion' and 'aionios' in the article here, for starters.

Also remember the law of justice or compensation, which is 'what a man sows, that also shall he reap', is proportioned only to the sin itself, measure for measure, and is only effected as long as a sin is engaged in, while a soul may at any moment in the opportunity of God's love (grace given) avail itself repentance and atonement, by re-turning to 'God'.

Love's eternal will is ever for its children to return home, to their source and sustainer.

Remember God's will.



pj

 

[freelight]

going beyond our golden calves.......

going beyond our golden calves.......

You do not love God. This shows in that you do not obey Him. You accept teachings from demons.

Frankly, whether I love 'God' or not is besides the point and debate of this thread on whether ECT is a biblical doctrine, or more pointedly in my more extensive treatment, is even moral or philosophically feasible. I accept a rationale approach to the subject, considering all the facts and knowledge available to come to rational conclusions and to honestly accept the 'unknowns' in the equation.

I choose to uphold my usual slogan of the ultimacy of divine Love and the triumph of divine will. - if a soul refuses such, it will suffer only in proportion to its 'error', as long as it deviates from its source, yet love by nature must always avail itself calling for the response and return of its offspring. 'Free will' can only go so far within the whole of divine providence, as the eternity and infinity of the divine will, guided by love and wisdom.... must ultimately prevail.



pj

 

[Zeke]

What exactly do you think Romans 7:17-18 is saying? Why do you call us the lynch mob? Do you feel as if you will be someone who will end up in the lake of fire?

At this stage of Paul's conversion the old man is all you would see or observe outwardly (Romans 7:15), Would you condemn him when it is no longer the spiritual new mans desires (Romans 7:17) to do these things (Romans 7:18) that you would be judging him buy with your two eyes:angrymob: Luke 17:20-21..

The metaphor for fire in scripture would be the spirit burning away the this chaff we all have, that's a universal law since time memorial.

It maybe seen as a vision quest by native peoples, but it is about the same thing, cleaning away mental fears and barriers that make you act against your will that seeks after your Creators.

 

[Zeke]

+

It says "unquenchable fire" Perhaps it is the fire that is eternal and following the laws of physics, that which is burned, consumed, ceases to exist.

I would agree in the sense it's a cleaning of the temple by fire or whip spiritually speaking, Jesus allegorically did this in the story of cleaning his Fathers temple which is, and always was the human body.

You literally apply this than his Fathers temple was made with hands and that's killing the spiritual meaning, which is why the letter is said to kill, and only the hidden spirit teaching behind it gives life.

 

[freelight]

spiritual fire.............

spiritual fire.............

+

I would agree in the sense it's a cleaning of the temple by fire or whip spiritually speaking, Jesus allegorically did this in the story of cleaning his Fathers temple which is, and always was the human body.

You literally apply this than his Fathers temple was made with hands and that's killing the spiritual meaning, which is why the letter is said to kill, and only the hidden spirit teaching behind it gives life.

Indeed, we are the temple of 'God', and analogies respecting the 'temple' and all is precincts (chambers/dimensions/furniture) apply to the inner workings of 'psyche' and 'spirit'. Thus the 'esoteric' science or teaching within any authentic religious tradition is essential to study and attend, besides the exoteric outer ritual and embellishments. All outer services in the temple and its forms are meant to inspire, illuminate and release the inner fire and vitality of the Spirit.

Extreme literalism to the exclusion of spiritual insight and theosophy (divine wisdom) is imposing the letter which is death (innately 'dead' already) without allowing the spiritual meaning and nuance of the 'logos' to light the sanctuary further allowing for progressive revelation.

This is why devotees of 'God' (the universal wisdom) are also called 'keepers of the flame'.



pj

 

[godrulz]

Some talk about the love and mercy of God, while others talk about the holiness and wrath/justice of God. It is both/and, not either/or.

 

[God's Truth]

Concerning the phrase "forever and ever" found in the verses of Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 would more accurately be translated as "to the ages of the ages".

Young's Literal Translation bears this out:

and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11

and in Revelation 20:10 :

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Now, an age is generally thought to be right around 2400 years, I think, but these verses say: "to the ages of the ages".

Rather than those being in eternal torment, the phrase, to me, means: beyond what we can see... an indefinite period of time. This doesn't mean eternally, for ever and ever, but is rather more than we can personally perceive, know, or be sure of it's duration.

I would tend to think that any amount of time being in torment, or being tormented, would seem to be never ending, and ever lasting, but I do not think that that is the intention of the verses.

Ever have a parent ground you without a given time for the end of your punishment? That they just said: "I'll let you know". That must have felt like an everlasting punishment, when it was actually just unknown when it would end.

How do spirits die? How does anyone die in the lake of fire if death is destroyed?

Just believe what God says in the scriptures. The scriptures say forever and ever.

 

[God's Truth]

The unquenchable fire is not quenched, it burns itsel out when there is no more fuel. Fire cannot exist without fuel, air, and heat.

The Bible does not say that.

 

[God's Truth]

That's an assumption fraught with various problems philosophically, beyond what you believe since you have a misconception of 'eternal/everlasting punishment' - please research the words 'aion' and 'aionios' in the article here, for starters.

I do not have to search another language to know God’s Truth.

Also remember the law of justice or compensation, which is 'what a man sows, that also shall he reap', is proportioned only to the sin itself, measure for measure, and is only effected as long as a sin is engaged in, while a soul may at any moment in the opportunity of God's love (grace given) avail itself repentance and atonement, by re-turning to 'God'.

Love's eternal will is ever for its children to return home, to their source and sustainer.

Remember God's will.

God’s will is that we choose to love Him on our own. God does not force anyone to love Him. There will be people who do not repent. That means there are people who refuse to love God.

 

[God's Truth]

Frankly, whether I love 'God' or not is besides the point and debate of this thread on whether ECT is a biblical doctrine, or more pointedly in my more extensive treatment, is even moral or philosophically feasible.

No, it is not beside the point, for it is those who do not love God who will go to the lake of fire.

I accept a rationale approach to the subject, considering all the facts and knowledge available to come to rational conclusions and to honestly accept the 'unknowns' in the equation.

I choose to uphold my usual slogan of the ultimacy of divine Love and the triumph of divine will. - if a soul refuses such, it will suffer only in proportion to its 'error', as long as it deviates from its source, yet love by nature must always avail itself calling for the response and return of its offspring.

Those who reject Jesus are the devil’s adopted offspring.

'Free will' can only go so far within the whole of divine providence, as the eternity and infinity of the divine will, guided by love and wisdom.... must ultimately prevail.

Free will is free will. It makes no sense to say it only goes so far.

 

[God's Truth]

At this stage of Paul's conversion the old man is all you would see or observe outwardly (Romans 7:15), Would you condemn him when it is no longer the spiritual new mans desires (Romans 7:17) to do these things (Romans 7:18) that you would be judging him buy with your two eyes Luke 17:20-21..

Paul was giving an exaggerated example of how it was for someone UNDER the law and WITHOUT FAITH. Paul was not speaking of himself after being saved.

The metaphor for fire in scripture would be the spirit burning away the this chaff we all have, that's a universal law since time memorial.

It maybe seen as a vision quest by native peoples, but it is about the same thing, cleaning away mental fears and barriers that make you act against your will that seeks after your Creators.

God is real.

 

[freelight]

willfull ignorance is self-defeating......

willfull ignorance is self-defeating......

I do not have to search another language to know God’s Truth.

Are you that ridiculous enough to believe you don't have to understand the original language (the Hebrew/greek) words that were later translated into English (which may suffer distortion and misrepresentation of the original sense the writers were attempting to convey) to more properly understand God's word? By all means a proper education of the original language and the use of words in their proper context is essential in arriving at rational conclusions here. Your stuffing your head in the sand, and refusing enlightenment. Why sabotage yourself ? Again,...'aion' and 'aionios' do not always imply or mean 'eternity' or 'endless duration', (but more properly indicates an 'indeterminate duration' or 'age', a 'periodic measure') and their use is furthermore determined by the connected subject and context where the word is used.


THE GREEK WORD

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

TRANSLATED

Everlasting -- Eternal

IN THE

HOLY BIBLE,

SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION.

BY

REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M.

You can believe as you choose, but by all means educate yourself on the facts before you form an 'opinion'.



pj

 

[freelight]

taking out the garbage.......

taking out the garbage.......

Some talk about the love and mercy of God, while others talk about the holiness and wrath/justice of God. It is both/and, not either/or.

There is no need to disconnect or separate the two, since 'God' is One and his actions perfectly mediate both justice and mercy in perfect love. Where does a concept of 'wrath' come from, except from human minds making a 'god' in their own image subject to human termperments and imperfections? Did you forget to consider the infinity of God's Love? Can what is infinite have a limited quality/quantity of divine supply, or be of a limited duration? Can what is infinite be 'limited' or 'exhausted' in anyway? All this about a 'wrathful' god is insane, catering to the glamour and romance of religious imagery, and when taken too far makes for madness.



pj

 

[God's Truth]

Are you that ridiculous enough to believe you don't have to understand the original language (the Hebrew/greek) words that were later translated into English (which may suffer distortion and misrepresentation of the original sense the writers were attempting to convey) to more properly understand God's word?

You are the one who is ridiculous. No one has to learn another language to understand God’s Truth. When Jesus was saving prostitutes, do you think he told them first to get some lessons on Greek?

By all means a proper education of the original language and the use of words in their proper context is essential in arriving at rational conclusions here.

You are proof it does not matter.

Your stuffing your head in the sand, and refusing enlightenment. Why sabotage yourself ?

That is exactly what you are doing.
You do not accept what God says. You make all kinds of excuses why you should not believe Him. “Did God really say ___?”
God really said to believe Him and have nothing to do with other gods. So then, why do you do what God says not to do?

Again,...'aion' and 'aionious' do not always imply or mean 'eternity' or 'endless duration', (but more properly indicates an 'indeterminate duration' or 'age', a 'periodic measure') and their use is furthermore determined by the connected subject and context where the word is used.
You can believe as you choose, but by all means educate yourself on the facts before you form an 'opinion'.

Forever and ever is forever, and ever. Satan is not going to be let loose again. Again, forever is forever.

 

[Timotheos]

You do not accept what is spiritual. The Bible tells us there are those who are DEAD even though they are alive in the body. See Luke 9:60.
You do not understand what is spiritual. The evidence I have of that is the very things that you say. You have a doctrine of death. You do not even believe the spirit has form and lives on in consciousness after the death of the physical body.
Why do you ask such rude things such as, “Who put you in charge?” Are you a hypocrite? Don’t I have the right to reply to this thread with my beliefs?

I'm not a hypocrite. you have the right to reply with your beliefs, I don't believe that you have the right to insult me and make up lies about me. I do accept what is spiritual, even though I do not agree with you. Believing that the wages of sin is death does not make my doctrine a "doctrine of death" any more than yours is a doctrine of torture. I believe that God gives eternal life to those who put their faith in Him for the removal of sins. This makes my doctrine the doctrine of LIFE. It is sin that causes death. I asked you who put you in charge because you proclaimed to the world that "Tim does not accept what is spiritual". That is simply untrue. God's Worshipers worship Him in spirit and in truth, and that is how I worship God. There is no verse in the Bible that says "the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever". According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death and the gift to those who put their trust in God is eternal life in Christ. That is the truth according to the Gospel. Please stop lying about me by saying that I do not believe what is spiritual. Just post whatever evidence from the Bible that you can find for your doctrine, and I will accept the truth of the Bible. Name calling is unnecessary and proves nothing.

 

[chrysostom]

I wonder why amr is avoiding this thread

 

[Zeke]

Paul was giving an exaggerated example of how it was for someone UNDER the law and WITHOUT FAITH. Paul was not speaking of himself after being saved.

God is real.

Lets pretend your right, Paul wasn't saved, would you condemn him to eternal damnation even though he couldn't control his flesh?

 

[godrulz]

I wonder why amr is avoiding this thread

Compared to the trinity, it is a peripheral waste of time. Those arguing for the unbiblical view ignore evidence.

 

[freelight]

Compared to the trinity, it is a peripheral waste of time. Those arguing for the unbiblical view ignore evidence.

This 'evidence' is pretty 'shaky',....especially when the term 'biblical' is thrown in there, since its 'according to one's own interpretation' of a text that 'proves' anything, and that 'interpretation' is questionable as we've already shown. So to say we are ignoring any 'evidence' is presumptive.



pj

 

[godrulz]

Hence the need for textual criticism, hermeneutics/exegesis.