Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

This Thread is Eternal Conscious Torment.

Hi Steve,

Go ahead and post the verse that says "The lost will go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever".

That will shut me up. If you post a verse that says that, I will admit that you are right and I am wrong. But if you can't produce such a verse, will you admit that the penalty for sin is death, just as the Bible says in Romans 6:23?

 

[rstrats]

God's Truth,

re: "You are not telling the truth about the scriptures."

Sure I am. I pointed out what your referenced scriptures didn't say.



re: "The punishment is FOREVER."

But exactly what is the "punishment" to be imposed on the individual? You want it to mean that the unsaved person will be given eternal life so that they can be tortured for eternity without dying. Why do you not want it to mean that the "punishment" handed down is to simply be given eternal death?

 

[Zeke]

That would be the most loving thing to do if the false doctrine of eternal torture were true. Why do these people put their children at risk of eternal damnation in the hell of eternal torture? But the dogma of eternal torture is absurd from start to finish. The Bible never once says that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tortured (or even tormented) alive forever. I keep asking them to show me the verse that says this, and they keep on refusing.

(Although some SAY that they have already shown me this verse, I haven't seen it. If they have, why not post it again? Seeing a verse that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead would certainly shut me up!)

Mercy for them is excepted with joy, but the door is slammed shut once they imagine they are save from the dungeon.

Romans 7:17-18 even puts some doubt as to just what part of a man is being but to death in the scripture, the outer mans actions may not tell the whole story, the flax might still be smoldering and it won't be put out.

 

[Zeke]

I gave scripture that says people will be thrown in the lake of fire and tortured forever.


The scriptures say:
PEOPLE will be THROWN IN HELL, to the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.
Mark 9:43-45

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

This scripture says PEOPLE will be thrown in the same eternal fire prepared for the devil.
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This scripture says people will tormented with fire and sulfur, and they have no rest, day or night.

Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

The best in show for exposing the hearts condition!

I was just following orders commandant, my morals no longer count I can blame my god now for being a hate monger and get away with it..

 

[bybee]

The best in show for exposing the hearts condition!

I was just following orders commandant, my morals no longer count I can blame my god now for being a hate monger and get away with it..

It says "unquenchable fire" Perhaps it is the fire that is eternal and following the laws of physics, that which is burned, consumed, ceases to exist.

 

[God's Truth]

The best in show for exposing the hearts condition!

God does not make us choose Him and love Him.

There is going to be a new earth one day, and I do not want to live on an earth just like this one with evil people. They judge themselves when they refuse to have faith in Jesus and repent.

I was just following orders commandant, my morals no longer count I can blame my god now for being a hate monger and get away with it..

What you say here makes no sense.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth,

re: "You are not telling the truth about the scriptures."

Sure I am. I pointed out what your referenced scriptures didn't say.

You are not telling the truth.

re: "The punishment is FOREVER."

But exactly what is the "punishment" to be imposed on the individual? You want it to mean that the unsaved person will be given eternal life so that they can be tortured for eternity without dying. Why do you not want it to mean that the "punishment" handed down is to simply be given eternal death?

Because the scriptures do not say what are saying.

 

[God's Truth]

That is why I brought up Romans 7:17-18 but it wasn't even considered by the lynch mob :angrymob:theology of these loving christian brothers and sisters spell bound by the ink god they can't seem to find among all the chaff in their dogmas.

What exactly do you think Romans 7:17-18 is saying? Why do you call us the lynch mob? Do you feel as if you will be someone who will end up in the lake of fire?

 

[God's Truth]

We need the lake of fire because God is everywhere. Most of us display at least some thought and behavior that is outside of the will of God. As we progress as Christians, we, with the help of God, shed these trains of thoughts. We become new creatures in Christ. The old stuff winds up in the lake of fire, where it is consumed like trash in an incinerator.

Can you show scripture that says what you are saying? Where does the Bible say thoughts and behaviors are thrown in the lake of fire?

I only want God's Truth. Please show me where it says what you say.

 

[God's Truth]

Cartwheels.

Again, its a matter of how one defines terms and their meanings.

If one trusts 'God' as a Deity of true justice and mercy, equally mediating such thru His love and wisdom,...there is nothing to fear, since perfect justice is ultimately ministered thru-out the cosmos, and in every individual case,....absolutely. - with this 'trust'...all is eventually consummated in 'God', who is the origin, beginning and end of all things, and all beings.

In Love there is no fear whatsoever. - hence Love is the only absolution.

People have to love God to know that kind of love.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Fear keeps us from sinning. That is what the scriptures say. If you believed in the power and truth of God's words, then you would fear God and obey Him. Then you could say you delight in the fear of the Lord. Then a person would be made perfect in His love.

Not everyone loves God, so then, how will they be made perfect by His love? They cannot.

 

[God's Truth]

they don't accept the literal translation
of
the second death

Timotheos and you do not accept what is spiritual.

 

[God's Truth]

To all those promoting an insidious god of eternal torture and cruelty....I suggest a proper education on the word in question here (a pretty thorough treatment below).

People condemn themselves.

 

[God's Truth]

See previous posts and expose on ECT, plus better research on the words 'aion' & 'aionios', or would you prefer ignorance over proper knowledge?



To the bold above,.....so God who is infinite Love maintains his awareness of those he has condemned to eternal torment but does not extend his love or salvation to them EVER. Is that the nature and character of our Heavenly Father? Your assumption also implies his presence is absent from them, which induces some kind of death-like state. All the while infinite Love is omnipresent. These propositions do not compute and are contradictory.

Not only is there the language-translation and contextual evidence against ECT, but as we've shared previously,..the gross injustice, inhumanity, cruelty, illogicity and insanity of ECT on simply moral and principled grounds. I suggest a bit more research and reconsideration of your 'belief' within the light shared. A grain of sanity can go a long way.



pj

Those who reject Jesus, they are rejecting God's love.

 

[God's Truth]

See previous posts and expose on ECT, plus better research on the words 'aion' & 'aionios', or would you prefer ignorance over proper knowledge?



To the bold above,.....so God who is infinite Love maintains his awareness of those he has condemned to eternal torment but does not extend his love or salvation to them EVER. Is that the nature and character of our Heavenly Father? Your assumption also implies his presence is absent from them, which induces some kind of death-like state. All the while infinite Love is omnipresent. These propositions do not compute and are contradictory.

Not only is there the language-translation and contextual evidence against ECT, but as we've shared previously,..the gross injustice, inhumanity, cruelty, illogicity and insanity of ECT on simply moral and principled grounds. I suggest a bit more research and reconsideration of your 'belief' within the light shared. A grain of sanity can go a long way.



pj

You do not love God. This shows in that you do not obey Him. You accept teachings from demons.


The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies us by the truth (John 17:17); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

We are sanctified through the work of the Spirit TO BE OBEDIENT.

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Did you read that? Did you hear it? We are sanctified through the work of the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus.

We purify ourselves by believing in the truth, and by obeying the truth. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Peter 1:22.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.

 

[Timotheos]

Timotheos and you do not accept what is spiritual.

I accept what is written in the Bible. Do you think that the Bible is not "spiritual"? What evidence do you have that Chrysostom and I "do not accept what is spiritual"? Just because we don't believe you? Who put you in charge? Why am I required to only believe what you believe? Where is that written in the Bible? And which verse in the Bible says "The lost go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever"? What chapter and verse is that? Why doesn't the Bible support your beliefs?

 

[God's Truth]

I accept what is written in the Bible. Do you think that the Bible is not "spiritual"? What evidence do you have that Chrysostom and I "do not accept what is spiritual"? Just because we don't believe you? Who put you in charge? Why am I required to only believe what you believe? Where is that written in the Bible? And which verse in the Bible says "The lost go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever"? What chapter and verse is that? Why doesn't the Bible support your beliefs?

You do not accept what is spiritual. The Bible tells us there are those who are DEAD even though they are alive in the body. See Luke 9:60.
You do not understand what is spiritual. The evidence I have of that is the very things that you say. You have a doctrine of death. You do not even believe the spirit has form and lives on in consciousness after the death of the physical body.
Why do you ask such rude things such as, “Who put you in charge?” Are you a hypocrite? Don’t I have the right to reply to this thread with my beliefs?
I only believe what the scriptures say. I gave you scripture that says the wicked will be thrown in hell and tortured forever.

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[Levolor]

Concerning the phrase "forever and ever" found in the verses of Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 would more accurately be translated as "to the ages of the ages".

Young's Literal Translation bears this out:

and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11

and in Revelation 20:10 :

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Now, an age is generally thought to be right around 2400 years, I think, but these verses say: "to the ages of the ages".

Rather than those being in eternal torment, the phrase, to me, means: beyond what we can see... an indefinite period of time. This doesn't mean eternally, for ever and ever, but is rather more than we can personally perceive, know, or be sure of it's duration.

I would tend to think that any amount of time being in torment, or being tormented, would seem to be never ending, and ever lasting, but I do not think that that is the intention of the verses.

Ever have a parent ground you without a given time for the end of your punishment? That they just said: "I'll let you know". That must have felt like an everlasting punishment, when it was actually just unknown when it would end.

 

[Levolor]

It bears mentioning also that there is a spiritual principle at work regarding these verses and those who actually wish for certain people to suffer without end.

Oh, and another thing, most people would never want anyone to suffer without end.

Tell me how it is that we humans can love more than God? We can't; therefore, the interpretation that has something occurring that is against most every individual's conscience and causes a reaction of horror is an interpretation that is in error.

That spiritual principle I mentioned earlier, it is the one of what we sow we shall reap. If a person really wants to see someone in hell, well that is exactly what that person will get for themselves. Exactly what they wish for another is what is received.

 

[jamie]

It says "unquenchable fire" Perhaps it is the fire that is eternal and following the laws of physics, that which is burned, consumed, ceases to exist.

The unquenchable fire is not quenched, it burns itsel out when there is no more fuel. Fire cannot exist without fuel, air, and heat.

 

[freelight]

purifying fire......

purifying fire......

It says "unquenchable fire" Perhaps it is the fire that is eternal and following the laws of physics, that which is burned, consumed, ceases to exist.

Indeed, there is an aspect of the 'fire' of 'God' that is a purifying, transforming, cleansing, regenerating flame. He baptizes us with the Spirit and FIRE, therefore that divine element, symbolized by physical fire burns up all that is unlike God and transforms it into a purer substance. So the 'lake of fire' correlates to the 'second death', as a consummate fire effecting the death or 'disintegration' of various elements in a soul (what is speculated however is if the soul itself is wholly disintegrated or just various elements in the soul that needed purifying).



pj