Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[12daysofchristmas]

We need the lake of fire because God is everywhere. Most of us display at least some thought and behavior that is outside of the will of God. As we progress as Christians, we, with the help of God, shed these trains of thoughts. We become new creatures in Christ. The old stuff winds up in the lake of fire, where it is consumed like trash in an incinerator.

 

[freelight]

approaching a sane theology......

approaching a sane theology......

My question of: "can you prove yourself" was in regard to the claim that scriptures had been already provided. It was not a question regarding 'beingness'.

As far as being able to prove your own beingness... I wouldn't be too sure of that, freelight. Afterall, as revealed, "you are just part of someone else's projection", and additionally as you say: "'God' is the only and ever-reality, omnipresently existing."

God is all, in all.

Indeed, I just thought to share some thoughts on 'being', since it is via our own 'being' and 'consciousness' that we know, perceive or experience anything. That we exist is self-evident, as long as awareness exists. - I might add, that as long as this consciousness sustains, a 'mind' interfacing this consciousness could choose to repent and re-turn to 'God' at any moment, as long as the opportunity and ability for such exists.

Furthermore, to assume a 'god' has placed an eternal verdict of punishment upon these souls to suffer consciously forever ( assuming an imposed condition to which there is no remedy or resolve) is quite heinous, when Love's will is ALWAYS for restoration, reformation, good, progress, fulfillment, freedom, joy.

Indeed, God is all in all, and in this light, if we abide in the consciousness of 'God' (divine consciousness), we are in 'God' and 'God' in us, for that 'God-presence' is all-pervading, substantial in and of itself, with all the qualities and attributes therein.

This literal interpretation of 'everlasting' and 'eternal' which does not necessarily reflect the true meaning of the greek, is absurd in the assumption of ECT, when as we've already shared such denigrates the very character of a truly just and merciful 'God', and thwarts his very will, to say nothing of such imputation of torment being most cruel and inhumane.

It would do well for some of these literalists to comprehend and reconsider the nature of Deity before literalizing a text which turns their 'god' into a sadist, because true principles come first before any misrespresentation of 'God', since 'Real God' cannot violate the eternal laws of Nature by inflicting a fate that logic, sanity and mercy cannot support.



pj

 

[freelight]

its more than a cookie-cutter conclusion.......

its more than a cookie-cutter conclusion.......

The False Prophet and Antichrist are thrown in the lake of fire (still conscious when the others join them). 1000 years later, Satan joins them and the unregenerate after the Great White Throne judgment.

This is explicit in Revelation, reality, not figurative.

I think your 'position' is somewhat precarious, assuming that a 'figurative' text projecting and envisioning a 'future state' not yet present, is somehow 'reality', when it does not yet even exist. Furthermore you are left with the burden to prove any of Revelation's visions or prophecies as being 'real' or 'fulfilled', beyond their 'symbolisms' and 'allegorical' imagery.



pj

 

[Aimiel]

Now the 'laws of nature' are deemed eternal and higher than your idea of Who God is? God designed nature, just as He designed time and space. He laughs at 'natural' law just as He laughed at those who say He could not possibly have a Son. He is God. He does as He pleases. He doesn't fit into our mind's ideas about Him, and we cannot even begin to imagine how great, holy, powerful and perfect He is. It wouldn't fit into a tiny little brain with a finite number of brain cells to calculate it with. He's beyond our imagination and His ways are past finding out. God is holy. He doesn't violate that holiness simply because you deem His judgment sadistic. He doesn't have to have anyone's permission to cast anyone into eternal conscious torment. By the way: when His judgment is passed... not one single word will ever be spoken against it. Those relegated to hell know they deserve it. We ALL do. Every single soul. Only The Blood of Jesus can change that. :thumb:

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth,

re: "PEOPLE will be THROWN IN HELL, to the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Mark 9:43-45"

Nothing said here about eternal torture.



re: "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."

Nothing said here about eternal torture.



re: "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Nothing said here about eternal torture.



re: "This scripture says people will tormented with fire and sulfur, and they have no rest, day or night."

Doesn't say for how long.




re: "he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

Doesn't say for how long.



re: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever..."

This only says that smoke will go up forever - doesn't say the torment will go on forever.

You are not telling the truth about the scriptures.

The punishment is FOREVER.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[godrulz]

why can't death be death?

Death for an animal is a cessation dirt nap. Man is in the image of God, not a hairless ape. Death in Scripture, by way of principle, is separation, not cessation.

Sin, death, God, salvation, etc. must be defined by Scripture, not Charles Darwin.

 

[godrulz]

how can you be separated from God?
if
He is everywhere

is He not everywhere?

Relational separation. Right now, those dead in sin are not aware of God's presence, but He is aware of them. There is a sense God manifests in heaven on a throne. The godless will not be in the immediate, manifested presence of God. God is aware of them in hell, but they do not see God face to face and do not feel His presence.

 

[godrulz]

I think your 'position' is somewhat precarious, assuming that a 'figurative' text projecting and envisioning a 'future state' not yet present, is somehow 'reality', when it does not yet even exist. Furthermore you are left with the burden to prove any of Revelation's visions or prophecies as being 'real' or 'fulfilled', beyond their 'symbolisms' and 'allegorical' imagery.



pj

The reality of heaven or hell is better or worse than the symbols, not lesser than. Symbols contain truth. Not everything in Revelation is figurative, symbolic, etc. Some are face value truths that we should not rationalize away.

 

[freelight]

Infinite Love......

Infinite Love......

Drown those kids before its to late.

I hear what your saying zeke, but two wrongs don't make a right. God save the children anyhow

What is deplorable is the concept of ECT, and how some chose to accept a literal description of a few words found in some books as some kind of 'reality', when the original greek words translated as 'eternal/everlasting' in English do not adequately represent the true meaning of the actual words used,...not to mention that the mischaracterized 'god' that accompanies this mistranslation goes against the very nature and will of love itself. A strange 'theology', and an even more impetuous 'god'.




pj

 

[freelight]

Proper education on 'aion' & 'aionios'

Proper education on 'aion' & 'aionios'

You are not telling the truth about the scriptures.

The punishment is FOREVER.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

&

godrulz wrote:

The reality of heaven or hell is better or worse than the symbols, not lesser than. Symbols contain truth. Not everything in Revelation is figurative, symbolic, etc. Some are face value truths that we should not rationalize away.

To all those promoting an insidious god of eternal torture and cruelty....I suggest a proper education on the word in question here (a pretty thorough treatment below).


THE GREEK WORD

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

TRANSLATED

Everlasting -- Eternal

IN THE

HOLY BIBLE,

SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION.

BY

REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M.



pj​

 

[chrysostom]

Relational separation. Right now, those dead in sin are not aware of God's presence, but He is aware of them. There is a sense God manifests in heaven on a throne. The godless will not be in the immediate, manifested presence of God. God is aware of them in hell, but they do not see God face to face and do not feel His presence.

oh so
death is not death
it is not even separation
but
it is relational separation

thanks for clearing that up

 

[chrysostom]

I hear what your saying zeke, but two wrongs don't make a right. God save the children anyhow

What is deplorable is the concept of ECT, and how some chose to accept a literal description of a few words found in some books as some kind of 'reality', when the original greek words translated as 'eternal/everlasting' in English do not adequately represent the true meaning of the actual words used,...not to mention that the mischaracterized 'god' that accompanies this mistranslation goes against the very nature and will of love itself. A strange 'theology', and an even more impetuous 'god'.




pj

they don't accept the literal translation
of
the second death

 

[freelight]

Consider the divine will and love for all........

Consider the divine will and love for all........

The reality of heaven or hell is better or worse than the symbols, not lesser than. Symbols contain truth. Not everything in Revelation is figurative, symbolic, etc. Some are face value truths that we should not rationalize away.

See previous posts and expose on ECT, plus better research on the words 'aion' & 'aionios', or would you prefer ignorance over proper knowledge?

godrulz definition of 'death' :

Relational separation. Right now, those dead in sin are not aware of God's presence, but He is aware of them. There is a sense God manifests in heaven on a throne. The godless will not be in the immediate, manifested presence of God. God is aware of them in hell, but they do not see God face to face and do not feel His presence.

To the bold above,.....so God who is infinite Love maintains his awareness of those he has condemned to eternal torment but does not extend his love or salvation to them EVER. Is that the nature and character of our Heavenly Father? Your assumption also implies his presence is absent from them, which induces some kind of death-like state. All the while infinite Love is omnipresent. These propositions do not compute and are contradictory.

Not only is there the language-translation and contextual evidence against ECT, but as we've shared previously,..the gross injustice, inhumanity, cruelty, illogicity and insanity of ECT on simply moral and principled grounds. I suggest a bit more research and reconsideration of your 'belief' within the light shared. A grain of sanity can go a long way.



pj

 

[freelight]

'death' as figurative......

'death' as figurative......

they don't accept the literal translation
of
the second death

Cartwheels.

Again, its a matter of how one defines terms and their meanings.

If one trusts 'God' as a Deity of true justice and mercy, equally mediating such thru His love and wisdom,...there is nothing to fear, since perfect justice is ultimately ministered thru-out the cosmos, and in every individual case,....absolutely. - with this 'trust'...all is eventually consummated in 'God', who is the origin, beginning and end of all things, and all beings.

In Love there is no fear whatsoever. - hence Love is the only absolution.


pj

 

[bybee]

Cartwheels.

Again, its a matter of how one defines terms and their meanings.

If one trusts 'God' as a Deity of true justice and mercy, equally mediating such thru His love and wisdom,...there is nothing to fear, since perfect justice is ultimately ministered thru-out the cosmos, and in every individual case,....absolutely. - with this 'trust'...all is eventually consummated in 'God', who is the origin, beginning and end of all things, and all beings.

In Love there is no fear whatsoever. - hence Love is the only absolution.


pj

In God's own time.

 

[Zeke]

We need the lake of fire because God is everywhere. Most of us display at least some thought and behavior that is outside of the will of God. As we progress as Christians, we, with the help of God, shed these trains of thoughts. We become new creatures in Christ. The old stuff winds up in the lake of fire, where it is consumed like trash in an incinerator.

That is why I brought up Romans 7:17-18 but it wasn't even considered by the lynch mob :angrymob:theology of these loving christian brothers and sisters spell bound by the ink god they can't seem to find among all the chaff in their dogmas.

 

[Zeke]

I hear what your saying zeke, but two wrongs don't make a right. God save the children anyhow

What is deplorable is the concept of ECT, and how some chose to accept a literal description of a few words found in some books as some kind of 'reality', when the original greek words translated as 'eternal/everlasting' in English do not adequately represent the true meaning of the actual words used,...not to mention that the mischaracterized 'god' that accompanies this mistranslation goes against the very nature and will of love itself. A strange 'theology', and an even more impetuous 'god'.




pj

It is absurd in one sense, but if one really believed this dogma to be true and also believed in the age of accountability then my absurd recommendation would be a mercy killing to save them from eternal damnation and torture.

 

[Timotheos]

oh so
death is not death
it is not even separation
but
it is relational separation

thanks for clearing that up

That's the traditional two step. Or should I say back step?

 

[not4sure]

This Thread is Eternal Conscious Torment.

 

[Timotheos]

It is absurd in one sense, but if one really believed this dogma to be true and also believed in the age of accountability then my absurd recommendation would be a mercy killing to save them from eternal damnation and torture.

That would be the most loving thing to do if the false doctrine of eternal torture were true. Why do these people put their children at risk of eternal damnation in the hell of eternal torture? But the dogma of eternal torture is absurd from start to finish. The Bible never once says that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tortured (or even tormented) alive forever. I keep asking them to show me the verse that says this, and they keep on refusing.

(Although some SAY that they have already shown me this verse, I haven't seen it. If they have, why not post it again? Seeing a verse that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead would certainly shut me up!)