Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[bybee]

I agree.

Why should we insist that people have to believe that God tortures the lost in fire in Hell forever, since the Bible doesn't say that? Why should we put a stumbling block in their way keeping them from coming to God? I've heard people say "If God tortures people in Hell, I don't want anything to do with him". If God tortures people in Hell, they should still come to Him because He is God. But if God doesn't torture people in Hell, who are we to say that He does? People die, and they know that. God can give them eternal life with Him. That's good news. Why aren't we telling people that, instead of make believe stories about eternal torture?

We should just say what the Bible says, and leave it at that.
"Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life".

When I was just a little girl in Sunday School we had to memorize "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that we should not perish but have everlasting life".
It is Love that saves.
No doubt there is punishment for transgression.
Those with eyes to see understand the nature of "action=reaction" right here and now.

 

[jamie]

Paul says so it will be with the resurrection of the dead. He does not say only for the righteous.

There are two resurrections.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)​

Do you want to be blessed and holy? Be in the first resurrection.

So who will be in the second resurrection?

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)​

Two resurrections.

The resurrection referred to in your scripture references is this one.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)​

Those who are Christ's will be made alive at Christ's coming. Those who are not Christ's at his coming will not be made alive at his coming.

So when will those who are not Christ's at his coming be made alive?

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)​

 

[chrysostom]

There are two resurrections.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)​

do you believe this is an earthly reign?

 

[jamie]

A spiritual BODY does not mean the same as a 'spirit'.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)​

You must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
(John 3:5)​

Do you want to enter into the kingdom of God? Be born of spirit and you will be blessed and holy.

 

[jamie]

do you believe this is an earthly reign?

And have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:10)​

 

[jamie]

do you believe this is an earthly reign?

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5)​

 

[Timotheos]

When I was just a little girl in Sunday School we had to memorize "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that we should not perish but have everlasting life".
It is Love that saves.
No doubt there is punishment for transgression.
Those with eyes to see understand the nature of "action=reaction" right here and now.

Yes, there is punishment for transgression, and it says right in John 3:16 what that punishment is. They perish. Just as the Bible also says in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"Those with eyes to see" can see that John 3:16 sets out two opposing conditions. Either a person has eternal life or they perish. Having eternal life in Hell being tortured alive is not one of the possibilities.

When you were a child in Sunday School, did they make you memorize any verses that said "The lost will go to Hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever"? If so, what verse is that? Where can I find it? I want to believe in Eternal Torture, just like every other Christian on Earth. I just don't see the evidence for it in the Bible. So I find myself believing what the Bible says instead. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life outside of Christ. Those who are perishing will not inherit eternal life in hell or anyplace else. They will perish, just as the Bible says.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree.

Why should we insist that people have to believe that God tortures the lost in fire in Hell forever, since the Bible doesn't say that? Why should we put a stumbling block in their way keeping them from coming to God? I've heard people say "If God tortures people in Hell, I don't want anything to do with him". If God tortures people in Hell, they should still come to Him because He is God. But if God doesn't torture people in Hell, who are we to say that He does? People die, and they know that. God can give them eternal life with Him. That's good news. Why aren't we telling people that, instead of make believe stories about eternal torture?

We should just say what the Bible says, and leave it at that.
"Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life".

I told you that you were blind. You were given the scriptures that say there will be people thrown in the lake of fire to be tortured forever, but you go against what God says.

Jesus says people are thrown in hell.

Mark 9:43-45

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

These scriptures say they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and that they will have no rest day or night.

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[God's Truth]

There are two resurrections.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
Do you want to be blessed and holy? Be in the first resurrection.

So who will be in the second resurrection?
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)
Two resurrections.

The resurrection referred to in your scripture references is this one.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
Those who are Christ's will be made alive at Christ's coming. Those who are not Christ's at his coming will not be made alive at his coming.

That is the second resurrection.
The first resurrection is when we are saved.

Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

So when will those who are not Christ's at his coming be made alive?
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

That is at the resurrection of our bodies. There is only one resurrection of our bodies where the righteous and wicked are raised.

 

[God's Truth]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)​

You must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
(John 3:5)​

Do you want to enter into the kingdom of God? Be born of spirit and you will be blessed and holy.

We are flesh and spirit.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.

When bodies are dead physically, our spirits live on in consciousness.

 

[jamie]

That is at the resurrection of our bodies. There is only one resurrection of our bodies where the righteous and wicked are raised.

Bye. :wave:

 

[God's Truth]

Bye. :wave:

It is nothing new many reject the truth.

Jesus is not going to come back to live on this world in the flesh with those in the flesh. He has already done that. All those saved will live in our new bodies on the new earth with Jesus, not this earth the way it is.

You watch too much TV pastors.

 

[Timotheos]

I told you that you were blind

And I didn't believe you. Should I just take your word for that? How am I typing this if I am blind? What are your qualifications for calling me blind? Are you a qualified eye doctor? Do you have any evidence for your accusation at all? I can see and read the scriptures, and they don't agree with what you are saying. I asked you to give me the scripture verse that says "the lost go to hell where they are tortured alive forever" and you couldn't do it.

Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in hell (Gehenna), so the fact that you say people will go to hell is irrelevant. They are not tortured alive forever and ever in hell, they are destroyed in Gehenna. You falsely accusing me of being blind will not change that.

And I told you before that Rev 20:10 speaks only of the Devil, beast and false prophet. Why can't you see that? Are you blind? Do you only see what you want to see?

If you believe that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever just tell me the verse that says this. And don't say that you already gave me that verse because you haven't. There is NO VERSE in the Bible that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever.

 

[bybee]

Yes, there is punishment for transgression, and it says right in John 3:16 what that punishment is. They perish. Just as the Bible also says in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"Those with eyes to see" can see that John 3:16 sets out two opposing conditions. Either a person has eternal life or they perish. Having eternal life in Hell being tortured alive is not one of the possibilities.

When you were a child in Sunday School, did they make you memorize any verses that said "The lost will go to Hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever"? If so, what verse is that? Where can I find it? I want to believe in Eternal Torture, just like every other Christian on Earth. I just don't see the evidence for it in the Bible. So I find myself believing what the Bible says instead. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life outside of Christ. Those who are perishing will not inherit eternal life in hell or anyplace else. They will perish, just as the Bible says.

I am reminded of the Jonathan Edwards sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" during the "Great Awakening" in America.
That is simply not an apprehension of God with which I can identify.
So many people wish to create a God of violence and unending punishment. Why would a Loving God do that? There is no necessity for such brutality against His own children?

 

[Timotheos]

I am reminded of the Jonathan Edwards sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" during the "Great Awakening" in America.
That is simply not an apprehension of God with which I can identify.
So many people wish to create a God of violence and unending punishment. Why would a Loving God do that? There is no necessity for such brutality against His own children?

Exactly right. I'm not fan of Jonathan Edwards either. Preachers should stick to what the Bible says.

 

[resurrected]

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Timotheos]

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Excellent.

Matthew 10:28
Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
NLT

 

[God's Truth]

And I didn't believe you. Should I just take your word for that? How am I typing this if I am blind?

You are spiritually blind, and ensnared by the devil.

What are your qualifications for calling me blind? Are you a qualified eye doctor? Do you have any evidence for your accusation at all? I can see and read the scriptures, and they don't agree with what you are saying. I asked you to give me the scripture verse that says "the lost go to hell where they are tortured alive forever" and you couldn't do it.

I gave those scriptures. You are ensnared by the devil and denying those scriptures.

Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in hell (Gehenna), so the fact that you say people will go to hell is irrelevant. They are not tortured alive forever and ever in hell, they are destroyed in Gehenna. You falsely accusing me of being blind will not change that.

I gave scriptures that say they will be thrown in the lake of fire and tortured forever. You keep saying it does not say that. You deny the truth. Then you say God will kill both the body and soul in hell, but the scripture does not say that. The scripture says man can kill the body and not the soul, but God can destroy both…does not say God can kill both. Why don’t you think the scripture does not say kill, but destroy? Destroy does not always mean kill. Destroy in that scripture means to put an end to the evil ways of the wicked.

And I told you before that Rev 20:10 speaks only of the Devil, beast and false prophet. Why can't you see that? Are you blind? Do you only see what you want to see?

The scriptures say:
PEOPLE will be THROWN IN HELL, to the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.
Mark 9:43-45

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

This scripture says PEOPLE will be thrown in the same eternal fire prepared for the devil.
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This scripture says people will tormented with fire and sulfur, and they have no rest, day or night.

Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

If you believe that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever just tell me the verse that says this. And don't say that you already gave me that verse because you haven't. There is NO VERSE in the Bible that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever.

You are blind and ensnared by the devil.
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Vaquero45]

The bottom line is that the biblical, historical, orthodox view is conscious, everlasting separation of sinner from holy God.

Evangelicals are compromising (moving to views held by cults) with universalism, annihilationism, etc. It is not a salvific issue like the Deity of Christ is, thankfully.

The bottom line is that godrulz is wrong about stuff, and people who eat babies agree with him but it doesn't matter, thank the god of "who cares". (very convincing, right?)

Just stop posting gr, you suck at this, your posts are stupid without exception, you add nothing here, ...but your post count rocks.

 

[godrulz]

The bottom line is that godrulz is wrong about stuff, and people who eat babies agree with him but it doesn't matter, thank the god of "who cares". (very convincing, right?)

Just stop posting gr, you suck at this, your posts are stupid without exception, you add nothing here, ...but your post count rocks.

My post is an accurate assessment of theology, church history, etc. Refute it instead of the ad hominem attacks. I don't see you here defending the Deity of Christ, gospel, Word of God, etc. in the face of heretical attacks.

You are just mad that I expose MAD.