The resurrections are one of the fundamental teachings of Christianity.
God did not send Jesus to condemn the world but rather to save the world. What's the score so far?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
The resurrections are one of the fundamental teachings of Christianity.
God did not send Jesus to condemn the world but rather to save the world. What's the score so far?
Hi GT. I agree with all of this.
:bang: :wave:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
confounding theology............
confounding theology............
All have physical vision, but psychic and spiritual vision may be another matter (considering degrees & qualities)
You know one could quote any passage to support their point of view, or offer an 'interpretation' on it. As we've already covered, the word 'aion' in the greek does not necessarily connote an everlasting eternal duration, but indicates an indefinite period of time, an 'age' or 'dispensation'. - add to that our relative definition of 'life', 'death', 'light' or 'darkness',...and how 'consciousness' corresponded or experiences such.
A 'chapter & verse' is not necessary for everything, but only if discussing something within a so called 'biblical' context, which is limited to itself, and still open to sundry translations.
I can only prove or know my own 'being-ness', and that is all. All 'else' is a projection, conception, perspective or assumption from some point in space or time, reflecting other points out there
- so its all 'relative', unless I consider the pure absolute knowledge of being itself, which is ever Self-evident, as long as I AM. 'God' is the only and ever-reality, omnipresently existing.
Heaven, if cognizing my own God-presence, is ever present. There is nowhere I could go, apart from it (whether there is a conscious or unconscious state assumed). - this puts the whole 'heaven' or 'hell' thing in a different light, more a play of the 'ego' or religious myth-making,...but that's another chapter
pj
confounding theology............
All have physical vision, but psychic and spiritual vision may be another matter (considering degrees & qualities)
You know one could quote any passage to support their point of view, or offer an 'interpretation' on it. As we've already covered, the word 'aion' in the greek does not necessarily connote an everlasting eternal duration, but indicates an indefinite period of time, an 'age' or 'dispensation'. - add to that our relative definition of 'life', 'death', 'light' or 'darkness',...and how 'consciousness' corresponded or experiences such.
A 'chapter & verse' is not necessary for everything, but only if discussing something within a so called 'biblical' context, which is limited to itself, and still open to sundry translations.
I can only prove or know my own 'being-ness', and that is all. All 'else' is a projection, conception, perspective or assumption from some point in space or time, reflecting other points out there
- so its all 'relative', unless I consider the pure absolute knowledge of being itself, which is ever Self-evident, as long as I AM. 'God' is the only and ever-reality, omnipresently existing.Heaven, if cognizing my own God-presence, is ever present. There is nowhere I could go, apart from it (whether there is a conscious or unconscious state assumed). - this puts the whole 'heaven' or 'hell' thing in a different light, more a play of the 'ego' or religious myth-making,...but that's another chapter
pj
God's Truth
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Where do the scriptures say the dead will be raised to offer everyone life?
The righteous will be raised to eternal life with Jesus, and the wicked to eternal punishment.
Eternal punishment for what?
God's Truth
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Why is the fire eternal but not the punishment?
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Since the devil, and the false prophet are being tormented day and night forever and ever...why do you not think the people are too?
Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
These scriptures say there will be people in the lake of fire who will have no rest day or night. Why don't you believe the scriptures?
Revelation 14:10-11
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
God's Truth
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Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
How long do you think a human being would last in such a fire? The lungs would be scorched in a fraction of a second and their life would end. They would never know what hit them.
God's Truth
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You do know don't you that you are arguing against the scripture, right?
We will not be raised with a human body. We will have a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
The fire is eternal. The punishment is eternal. But the punishment is not torment or torture. Look at your Jude passage again. The destruction of S and G is an example of the destruction by eternal fire.
God's Truth
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The example is that people who do wicked things will be put to fire.
God's Truth
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The scripture says they are will have no rest day or night.
Revelation 14:10-11
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Not a pretty picture.
Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And spiritual bodies don't burn. There is no material to burn.
Plus only the righteous receive an incorruptible body. Incorruptible bodies are indestructible, impervious to hot or cold and they last a long time. Kind of like this thread.
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God's Truth
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A spiritual BODY does not mean the same as a 'spirit'.
That is how the wicked could be tortured in the lake of fire for ever and ever.
The scriptures say what is buried is a natural body, and what is raised is a spiritual body.
Can you show from the scriptures what you say?
Where in the scriptures does it say only the righteous will be receive incorruptible bodies?
1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
Paul says so it will be with the resurrection of the dead. He does not say only for the righteous.
So what that this thread is long?
The bottom line is that the biblical, historical, orthodox view is conscious, everlasting separation of sinner from holy God.
Evangelicals are compromising (moving to views held by cults) with universalism, annihilationism, etc. It is not a salvific issue like the Deity of Christ is, thankfully.
Evangelicals are compromising (moving to views held by cults) with universalism, annihilationism, etc. It is not a salvific issue like the Deity of Christ is, thankfully.
Not a salvific issue, I guess I agree. Yet I think this could be a bit of a faith road block. Proverbs 9:10
I agree.
Why should we insist that people have to believe that God tortures the lost in fire in Hell forever, since the Bible doesn't say that? Why should we put a stumbling block in their way keeping them from coming to God? I've heard people say "If God tortures people in Hell, I don't want anything to do with him". If God tortures people in Hell, they should still come to Him because He is God. But if God doesn't torture people in Hell, who are we to say that He does? People die, and they know that. God can give them eternal life with Him. That's good news. Why aren't we telling people that, instead of make believe stories about eternal torture?
We should just say what the Bible says, and leave it at that.
"Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life".
we need amr to weigh in on this