If you don't believe in the trinity...
- Thread starter Eeset
- Start date
- Status
popsthebuilder
New member
The second coming of Christ will also bring a sword in that the three against the two will be lead by the Crist under God. Be ever vigil. All praise is to God.I am definitely not fluent in Hebrew, but I have taught myself enough to know a few things. I believe the reason that verse is interpreted so many different ways is that it tends to blow away what the various sects all claim. The Jews claim that only the Father is YHWH. The trinitarians believe that God is immutable, and as you note that the Son is not the Father and is the Son for evermore.
While this is correct, I did not say the Son is the Father, and that is not what Isa 9:6 says either. It is a prophecy. The Son is the "legal agent" or revelation of the Father to us who showed us the way. Thus Jesus says things like those who saw Him, saw the Father.
Jesus did bring peace - peace of salvation and freedom from fear of death. However, Jesus is also saying that He is their last chance. As the revelation of the Father to them, and as YHWH, a rejection of Him was a rejection of the Father. Thus, the day of vengeance had arrived upon the Jews. This is the sword He brought to the Jews - for Jerusalem to be utterly laid waste and for the people to be scattered until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Well, since El Gibbor(Mighty God) is used elsewhere in reference to the Father, without similar appendages, I would have to say this is a disputable point.
Very different and not correct as there is no verb there in the Hebrew.
Again, I think it fairly obvious that the different translations are being foisted upon the Hebrew because those (like yourself) are reading it with their preconceived notions of scripture theology. One person who also happens to post on this website even tried to tell me that the power on his shoulder is the Father, so the verse is saying the Mighty God, the Father is on the shoulder of the Son.
The plain, simple interpretation of most who know Hebrew is that this Son shall be called the Everlasting Father or Father of all ages....
This doesn't fit your paradigm so you look for other "more comfortable" interpretations.
I posit that this is the literal meaning of the verse, and the rightful inheritance of the Son who the Father says in Isa 42 is the only servant who shall receive His glory. Isa 65:9 says the inheritor from Judah shall inherit His holy mountains. Isa 9:6 makes it clear that in that day Jesus shall be the Father, and their oneness shall be complete. This is how Jesus can say "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matt 19:28
The creeds cover up this truth with things like "co-equal," "eternally begotten," etc. The doctrine of the trinity has cornered itself, because it leaves no room for the Son to inherit the other names of the Father. He is already YHWH Elohim with Him. But I stand with Isaiah and proclaim that He shall be indeed called the Father when His inheritance in the saints is fulfilled.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Christ in me is.
1 Peter 4:11 KJV
11 If any man speak , let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister , let him do it as of the ability which God giveth : that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
No you just have to understand Hebrew! Your like an American white socked sandaled tourist reading Hebraic scripture without a clue!
The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English in your bibles.
The better explanation is that the Hebrews uses a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acts as a means of intensification.
Hope this helps... Perhaps you should stay in the hotel, your getting a little "son" burned in the Hebrew scriptures!
oly::sherlock:Paul
popsthebuilder
New member
Rev Testament,
You speak of how the dead of spirit in sin will be resurrected through Crist. Through this resurrection of the spirit under God we will be a direction to God.
The lamb is Christ in the spirit which is God. The 144000 others are under God through Christ and still men or of the flesh, technically.
Jesus became one with God wholly when his spirit left his flesh.
There is no phisical to speak of.
The repeated reference to computers and robots is quite alarming. Be ever vigil.
We sit and iron out our differences, this is good. However the work of Satan if not slowing it is insideouse and hidden.
The last part is a reference to the unity of the truly faithful under God, and there direction and vengeance on the wicked through Crist for the sake of the father and Christ, which is the father now.
You speak of how the dead of spirit in sin will be resurrected through Crist. Through this resurrection of the spirit under God we will be a direction to God.
The lamb is Christ in the spirit which is God. The 144000 others are under God through Christ and still men or of the flesh, technically.
Jesus became one with God wholly when his spirit left his flesh.
There is no phisical to speak of.
The repeated reference to computers and robots is quite alarming. Be ever vigil.
We sit and iron out our differences, this is good. However the work of Satan if not slowing it is insideouse and hidden.
The last part is a reference to the unity of the truly faithful under God, and there direction and vengeance on the wicked through Crist for the sake of the father and Christ, which is the father now.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Shut yo mouth, Pops.
Luke 24:39 KJV
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see ; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have .
popsthebuilder
New member
Hey could the plural that you quoted reference the duality in us as in good and bad, righteous and evil, the life of sin and the resurrection of spiritual life through Crist under God?No you just have to understand Hebrew! Your like an American white socked sandaled tourist reading Hebraic scripture without a clue!
The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English in your bibles.
The better explanation is that the Hebrews uses a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acts as a means of intensification.
Hope this helps... Perhaps you should stay in the hotel, your getting a little "son" burned in the Hebrew scriptures!
[emoji14]oly::sherlock:
Paul
Thanks.
popsthebuilder
New member
Of course this was after his physical death. He was one with God in whole at this point. He was also still fulfilling prophesies at this point. Being of God wholly at this point and the necessity of fulfillment of prophesy, he was not only capable of physical manifestation, but had to be manifested as was prophesied. Later is proves that he indeed was of the spirit as he parted and ascended. Not as a man, or physical thing would do.
Apple7
New member
A plural abstract emphatic life..so what?
That impacts The Trinity, how, exactly...?
It doesn't...
'Plural of Majesty' NEVER existed anywhere in the ANE, including Biblical Hebrew.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
What in the hell are you talkin' about, whole with God?
Your quoting Plato! "duality"
That's the problem.... Your going out of the Prophets and into Plato! The philosophy's do not mix!
Shema Yisrael! Hear, O Israel!
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
This is one of the very first Bible verse that most Jewish boys and girls learn. It binds the Jewish life and community together. Every devout Jew recited it daily and even utter the Shema when dying. This is the one belief that distinguished Israel from all the surrounding nations that had multiple gods. “The Lord is one Lord” is thus Israel's classic statement of monotheism, Judaism's highest confession of Faith. It speaks of Yahweh's uniqueness and exclusiveness, that he is one single integral person, not divisible.
Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict.
Paul
Yes it does... and I showed you here...
No you just have to understand Hebrew! Your like an American white socked sandaled tourist reading Hebraic scripture without a clue!
The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English in your bibles.
The better explanation is that the Hebrews uses a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acts as a means of intensification.
Hope this helps... Perhaps you should stay in the hotel, your getting a little "son" burned in the Hebrew scriptures!
Paul
Try harder!!!
oly::sherlock:Paul
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
iamaberean
New member
I have tried to make the same points you make on words being plural.
The point of God being one comes from a Jewish scholar. Since Elohim is plural the Jew always qualify their God as 'LORD (Jehovah) God'.
So when one quotes Deu 6: 4
it points out 'the LORD(Jehovah) our God is one'.
When speaking of Jesus it also points out that the Redeemer is LORD God in the flesh.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me
popsthebuilder
New member
That has little to do with what I asked.
Frankly, it seems as if you refute without even hearing. Perhaps that is best for you.
There is one God, the creator, the merciful, the righteous, the way, the saviour, existence.
However, know that there is an opposing negative consuming, writhing, insidious, corrupt, void that is literally in all things as the majority of the very material existence as we know it. This is evident in the first o Mrs of the Torah, and theorized in modern science which also theorizes the existence of the one God.
I do not deny that there is but one God.
It may behoove you per your perspective to understand that there is a destroyer, or consumer, and that it is opposite the creator in every way. Do they not speak of sheol, or hell, or baal or satan where you learn?
I agree that dwelling on such is counterproductive, but to me denying it altogether seams much more faulty. Thanks.
All praise is to the one God the Creator
popsthebuilder
New member
Lines of the Torah, or Old Testament
iamaberean
New member
To understand that God is one, watch these videos by Michael Heiser, Ph. D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldiVSY8Dfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldiVSY8Dfk
1. Uwriy'el, (HSN#0222) one-united of the holy Malakim
2. Rapha'el, (HSN#7501) one-united of the holy Malakim
3. Raga`uw'el, (HSN#7280, HSN#7467) one-united of the holy Malakim
4. Miyka'el, (HSN#4317) one-united of the holy Malakim
5. Sharaqa'el, (HSN#8319) one-united of the holy Malakim
6. Gabriy'el, (HSN#1403) one-united of the holy Malakim
7. Ra'amiy'el, (HSN#7213) one-united of the holy Malakim
Leviticus 16:3-10
3. Thus shall Ahron come into the Holy Place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
4. He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
5. And he shall take of the congregation of the sons of Yisrael two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
6. And Ahron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before YHWH at the door of the Ohel Mo`ed.
8. And Ahron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for YHWH, and the other lot for `Aza'zel.
9. And Ahron shall bring the goat upon which lot fell to YHWH, and present him for a sin offering.
10. But the goat, on which the lot fell to `Aza'zel, shall be presented alive before YHWH, to make an atonement with him, [at a later time] and to let him go for `Aza'zel into the wilderness [dry-arid-desert places, Matthew 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26].
So then, as suggested yesterday in the thread where you also replied, concerning the "Prodigal Son Parable", it is the congregation which provides the two goats, not the Priest himself, (so much for modern atonement theory). In addition the names of the seven holy Watchers are also found in other ancient writings, some of which did at one time count as what was considered canon, such as for example the book of Tobit, which contains Raguel, (as a man) and his wife Edna who is also the wife of Enoch, (whose name simply means Eden) which explains who most likely the name Raguel refers to, that is, Yithrow, ("his Excellence") the Melki-Tzedek Elohim priest of Midian and father-in-law of Moshe the man of Elohim who married into that priesthood by way of one of the seven tsipporim-daughters of Yithrow-Raguel, (tsipporim, "little birdies", of the clean kind) that is, the wife of Moshe whose name is Tsipporah, and also the daughter of Raguel and Edna is Sarah, (the Covenant) and the same Tobit also speaks of the Malak Raphael, who is also called Azarias the son of Hananiah-Ananias, (see Daniel 1:6) and likewise the book of 2Esdras, which contains the Malak Uriel, which book still has an original 1611 KJV translation floating around to this day). So much for the modern version of western Hellenized atonement theory because one must rather do as the Master Teacher says, either part his own soul asunder or lose it; for the Father has given blood upon the altar for the atonement of the soul and the altar we are commanded to make unto Him is our own altar of adamah, (it is inward and of the inward man) which is the heart through which our own blood flows every second of every minute of every hour of every day. And if you will make an altar of stone, then you must not lay any tool of man upon it, for if you do then you will have defiled it because it is all supernal in meaning as the Torah is Spirit, (Exodus 20:24-25).
:sheep:
Apple7
New member
No.
All you did was to recycle your old, worn-out cut-n-paste.
Show us in scripture the words 'majestic plural'.
Table turning time.
Owned!
RevTestament
New member
Are you suggesting that the two goats represent the two sons of the parable?
If you are suggesting that the 1st goat represented the sacrifice of Yeshua, you are incorrect. First, goats are sinners in the scriptures, and Yeshua was without sin. Second, the first goat was presented to make a sin offering as an atonement with the bullock. It was the blood of the bullock which made an atonement for the congregation or "his house."
The first goat is representative of Peter - not Jesus, who made a sin offering with Jesus, which was not for an atonement of the house however.
"14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times."
I am not sure, but I believe these 7 times represent the 7 times of Leviticus 26 in which Israel is punished ie Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and lands of the heathen. But it is possible they may represent the 7 eyes of the lamb of Revelation 5, or that is also the 7 seals. Each is opened by the lamb in one of the 7 "watchers" as you put it. However, I still do not know about all the names you list. Any sources besides the Book of Enoch? Their earthly names include Adam(Miyka'el), Noah, Abraham, David, John the Baptist (gave token of the covenant for Yeshua), etc, to this day.
As for the scapegoat let go in the wilderness, you may wish to note that the 2nd beast of Revelation rises up in the wilderness instead of the sea, and that the woman of Rev 12 has a place for her prepared in the wilderness to be restored after the 1260 days/years.
For the altar or temple is raised up "without hands" following the same model of our Lord
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
- Status