If you don't believe in the trinity...

[freelight]

Just 'concepts' anyways.......

Just 'concepts' anyways.......

The Trinity is an epithet representing the Creator as revealed in the entirety of scripture.

No scripture thwarts it - as it is already ALL scripture.

Well, that's from your 'trinitarian' perspective and 'template' you read 'thru' when reading the 'scripture'

One could just as well see the logic and rationale for reading from a 'Unitarian' view, as we have shared here and other places already




pj

 

[RevTestament]

Could you have selected a more damaging verse for your position?

First of all, you are still slavishly clinging to the inferior KJV, Textus Receptus (just like your ‘prophet’ Joseph Smith), of which, attempts to reduce the true impact of The Trinity.

The Majority Text reads as thus…

Rev 14.1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion! And with Him a hundred forty four thousand, having His name, and the name of His Father, written on their foreheads.

How this destroys your unitarian position…

First, I am not unitarian. Although Unitarianism probably got started off on the right foot, modern unitarianism has sadly lost the true idea of the begottenness of the Son.

Second, there is no major difference between those two versions imho. I don't think it matters too much to the true meaning either way.

His Name will be on their Foreheads

• John declares that he sees the 144,000 sealed, residing with The Lamb (i.e. Jesus Christ), on Mount Zion (Rev 14.1)
• These are the ones that have Jesus’ singular name and His Father’s singular name written on their foreheads
• Thus, both the Father and the Son are demonstrated have their singular namesake written on the redeemed people, and being in direct possession of the people, via the usage of the genitive singular ‘autou’
• Just as the singular name of The Lamb and the singular name of the Father are written on the foreheads of the Elect, as stated in Revelation 14.1, we are told that this is ‘His name’, as Jesus Christ and the Father are one God
• The 144,000 are in the direct presence of God and will see His face, and they will worship Him
• Observe that Revelation declares three separate times that Jesus’ name will be upon His believers, the 144,000 sealed. The First time that this is mentioned, Jesus declares, in the first person singular, that only He writes the name on His Elect. (Rev 3.12 – 13)
• Thus, three separate times Revelation declares that Jesus’ name will be upon His Elect, with each of the Elect having three names written upon them: Theos, Jesus, & The New Jerusalem

Sorry, but IMHO you have no true understanding of Revelation. You think you know the name of the lamb on the 144,000, but you do not.


Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[Apple7]

Well, that's from your 'trinitarian' perspective and 'template' you read 'thru' when reading the 'scripture'

One could just as well see the logic and rationale for reading from a 'Unitarian' view, as we have shared here and other places already




pj

Nope.

Trinity-deniers are forever having to invent some sort of excuse for the legions of plurals that they encounter, for the One God, time and time again in scripture.

Trinitarians don't have this issue...

 

[Apple7]

First, I am not unitarian. Although Unitarianism probably got started off on the right foot, modern unitarianism has sadly lost the true idea of the begottenness of the Son.

Then you are a Trinity-denier.

Second, there is no major difference between those two versions imho. I don't think it matters too much to the true meaning either way.

What?!

One version just mentions the Name of The Father, only.

The other version mentions the singular Name of The Father AND The Son - making Each the same....and that's 'no major difference'...?!

lol...keep that ignorance flowing, bro...

Sorry, but IMHO you have no true understanding of Revelation. You think you know the name of the lamb on the 144,000, but you do not.

Its the same NAME as The Father, according to Revelation.

You need to change your nic....

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

More deity interchangeability as both The Son & The Spirit make the declaration in the first place...

Again...you picked the wrong Biblical Book to deny The Trinity...

 

[RevTestament]

None of the prophets spoke AS Yahweh.

They spoke saying "I", "me", etc. I notice you had no answer for my Exodus 3:15-16 scripture.

Further, how many of the prophets had an animal sacrifice prepared for them - which was Only reserved for Yahweh?

There were different types of offerings, and you don't understand them, but yes they are all for the sake of YHWH's holy name.

Then Manoah prayed to Yahweh, and said, O my Lord, the Man of The Gods whom You sent, please let Him come again to us and direct us what we shall do to the boy being born. And The Gods listened to the voice of Manoah, and the Malek of The Gods came again to the woman. And she was sitting in a field; and her husband Manoah was not with her. And the woman hurried and ran, and told her husband, and said to him, Behold, He has appeared to me, The Man who came to me that day. And Manoah rose up and went after his wife, and came to The Man. And he said to Him, Are You The Man who spoke to the woman? And He said, I am. And Manoah said, Then let Your words come about. What shall be the way of the boy, and his undertaking? And Malek Yahweh said to Manoah, Let her take heed of all that I said to the woman; she shall not eat of anything that came forth from the grapevine; and she shall not drink wine or fermented drink; and she shall not eat any unclean thing. She shall be careful of all that I commanded her. And Manoah said to Malek Yahweh, Please let us keep You, and prepare before You a kid of the goats. And Malek Yahweh said to Manoah, If you keep Me, I will not eat of your bread. And if you prepare a burnt offering, you shall offer it to Yahweh. For Manoah did not know that He was Malek Yahweh. And Manoah said to the Malek Yahweh, What is Your name? When Your words come about, then we shall honor You. And the Malek Yahweh said to him, Why do you ask this about My name? Yea, it is Wonderful. And Manoah took the kid of the goats, and the food offering, and offered on the rock to Yahweh. And He did wonderfully, and Manoah and his wife were watching. And it happened as the flame from off the altar was going up to the heavens, that Malek Yahweh went up in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife were watching. And they fell on their faces to the ground. And Malek Yahweh did not appear any more to Manoah, or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that He was Malek Yahweh. And Manoah said to his wife, Dying we shall die, because we have seen God. And his wife said to him, If Yahweh desired to put us to death, He would not have received a burnt offering and a food offering from our hands, nor made us see all these things; nor would He now have caused us to hear things like these. (Judges 13. 6 – 23)[/I]

Plain as day from Judges Chapter 13, we can see that Malek HaElohim is the very same as Malek Yahweh.

The Messenger of The Gods is the Messenger of Yahweh.

Further, Malek Yahweh is described as being a Man.

So far we see that Malek YHWH cannot be Father YHWH, since he allowed Himself to be seen, as Manoah's wife noted. Being the Messenger of Elohim, is the same as being the messenger of YHWH. That still does not make the messenger YHWH. It seems to be hurting your case if anything for He is not being identified as God, but His/Their messenger. That seems to be eliminating Jesus as well.

Observe that Manoah and his wife offer-up a food sacrifice to Malek Yahweh – with the stipulation from Malek Yahweh that it not be a bread offering, as only a burnt flesh offering will suffice, and it has to be made to Yahweh.

So? Notice it is not being offered to the Malek.

It is at this point that we realize that Manoah did not know that he was speaking with Malek Yahweh. Malek Yahweh clarifies to Manoah that any sacrifice made to Him

You seem to be insinuating that the Malek is saying a sacrifice made to him personally.... He did not say that, but specified that they needed to make a sacrifice "in the name of Yahweh."

Malek Yahweh is described as being seen rising in the flame of the sacrificial altar. It is at this point that Manoah and his wife understood that by seeing Malek Yahweh, that they had seen Yahweh in the flesh by the statement, 'Dying we shall die, because we have seen God.'

You are reversing the statements to bolster your case. Because right after that she notes that they didn't die, so it wasn't Father YHWH they saw. So the wife is clarifying what Manoah said in that quote.

 

[RevTestament]

Again...you picked the wrong Biblical Book to deny The Trinity...

I don't deny the three in the Godhead, but the Book of Revelation destroys the doctrine of the trinity as the doctrine of men.

 

[Apple7]

They spoke saying "I", "me", etc. I notice you had no answer for my Exodus 3:15-16 scripture.

Exo 3.14

And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...?

There were different types of offerings, and you don't understand them, but yes they are all for the sake of YHWH's holy name.

Show us a prophet who was given an animal sacrifice.

So far we see that Malek YHWH cannot be Father YHWH, since he allowed Himself to be seen, as Manoah noted.

Whoever declared That He was The Father...?

Being the Messenger of Elohim, is the same as being the messenger of YHWH.

Agreed.

That still does not make the messenger YHWH. It seems to be hurting your case if anything for He is not being identified as God, but His/Their messenger. That seems to be eliminating Jesus as well.


So? Notice it is not being offered to the Malek.

You seem to be insinuating that the Malek is saying a sacrifice made to him personally.... He did not say that, but specified that they needed to make a sacrifice "in the name of Yahweh."

You are reversing the statements to bolster your case. Because right after that she notes that they didn't die, so it wasn't Father YHWH they saw. So the wife is clarifying what Manoah said in that quote.

Let's turn up the heat on your worldview, by looking a few chapters earlier in Judges...

And I said to you, I am Yahweh your God. You shall not fear the gods of the Amorite among whom you are dwelling in their land. But you have not listened to My voice. And The Malek Yahweh came and sat under the oak which is in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite. And his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the eyes of Midian. And The Malek Yahweh appeared to him, and said to him, Yahweh is with you, mighty warrior. And Gideon said to Him, Oh my Lord, if Yahweh is with us, then why has all this happened to us? And where are all His wonders which our fathers recounted to us, saying, Did not Yahweh bring us up out of Egypt? And now Yahweh has left us, and has given us into the hands of Midian. And Yahweh turned to him and said, Go in this strength of yours, and you shall deliver Israel out of the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you? (Judges 6.10 -14)


Here we have yet another undeniable account of Malek Yahweh being presented directly as Yahweh, as He talked directly face-to-face with Gideon!

Please tell us how it is that Yahweh turns to Gideon when speaking...?

 

[Apple7]

I don't deny the three in the Godhead, but the Book of Revelation destroys the doctrine of the trinity as the doctrine of men.

No.

The Book of Revelation, alone, crushes the head of your worldview.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

But such terms become 'petty' more or less, since the 'oneness' of 'God' is already established in scripture, and the term 'monad' doesn't need to be in the text for that to be so. Of course you will argue the same for the 'Trinity', so looks like two tugboats floating in the same pond. The same ultimate divine REALITY ever exists, timelessly so, however you describe or attempt to define or divide the one essence into persons or personalities.

'God' is still always the universal, eternal, infinite Spirit-presence, indivisible as well as manifesting in innumerable ways, forms and personalities. 'God' is All There IS.....and more. All springs from and is included in the Infinite ONE.
pj

As Paul well stated when he said we are all his offspring.

Trintarianism as well as unitarianism and u-rant-a-ism are offspring of the ignorance of man.

 

[patrick jane]

As Paul well stated when he said we are all his offspring.

Trintarianism as well as unitarianism and u-rant-ism are offspring of the ignorance of man.

do you agree there is The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost ? -

nuff said, you're a triune beliver - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

where's ardenios been - he's your cuz -

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No.

The Book of Revelation, alone, crushes the head of your worldview.

Nope.

Yer world view does not let you know what it is to have the authority of the son speaking for his father.

He had authority to speak as him.

When you learn this you will know Jesus Christ.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

do you agree there is The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost ? -

nuff said, you're a triune beliver - atrol:

Three singin' the same song.

RYTHM,RHYME,HARMONY

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Luv yuh Mark.

 

[popsthebuilder]

As simplified as reset's post is, it is true. Only God is to be worshipped. The Lord Jesus Christ accepted worship and praise.

Jesus directed worship and praise to God. The creator, not the flesh.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Malek Yahweh declares he is not God.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid * for thee.

16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.

At this time Malek Yahweh's name is secret.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour ?

18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret * ?


Then Malek Yahweh becomes the sacrifice.


19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously ; and Manoah and his wife looked on .

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife.


Behold Malek Yahweh the Lamb of God.:jawdrop:

 

[popsthebuilder]

So are you saying as YHWH, the Father is telling them they will arise together with "my dead body?"

The plural there is genuine - the whole context is plural - "as one of us." In other words Jahoshua(Jesus in the Greek) is speaking as one JHWH Elohim as well as the Father.

If only the Father can be YHWH, who is this?:

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHWH Our Righteousness.

and this?
Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHWH our righteousness.

There, you are speaking of Jesus, Moses, and God.

God is the creator, and father and or mother.

Son is man, more specifically, man completely understand God and without sin.

The holy ghost is the attainment of the God helm, or Crist consciousness through the death of our sin, and the rebirth of our spirit through Crist under God. This is possible due to the crucifixion of Jesus for our sins, and second coming of Crist through resurrection of the Spirit. Thanks.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You've got to be 1 of the very most saintly heretic's the Church has ever had the pleasure of knowing. You're journey of discovery is done with love, but I caution you that it is done with a stubbornness that I know you already confess, but I'm not sure that you really know what your confessing.

I like you and I'm rooting for you. I pray to Mary for you.


DJ

1.0
​

Why do you pray to Mary, as opposed to God? Respectfully.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

First, I am not unitarian. Although Unitarianism probably got started off on the right foot, modern unitarianism has sadly lost the true idea of the begottenness of the Son.

Second, there is no major difference between those two versions imho. I don't think it matters too much to the true meaning either way.

Sorry, but IMHO you have no true understanding of Revelation. You think you know the name of the lamb on the 144,000, but you do not.


Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Yer gettin' closer, brother.

 

[patrick jane]

1mind is a guru - savant Svengali