ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[SaulToPaul 2]

Daniel 9
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the Lord watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the Lord our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

 

[tetelestai]

Daniel 9
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the Lord watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the Lord our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

LOL....he asked about verse 24.

Since you constantly deny the division of the two houses (Israel & Judah), why don't you set the record straight, and tell us when the nation of Israel split into two houses, and when they were joined together again?

Lay it out for us?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

LOL....he asked about verse 24.

Since you constantly deny the division of the two houses (Israel & Judah), why don't you set the record straight, and tell us when the nation of Israel split into two houses, and when they were joined together again?

Lay it out for us?

:chuckle:


20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;



now read verse 24

 

[whitestone]

LOL....he asked about verse 24.

Since you constantly deny the division of the two houses (Israel & Judah), why don't you set the record straight, and tell us when the nation of Israel split into two houses, and when they were joined together again?

Lay it out for us?

lol, by all means read the entire chapter,then continue on over to the next chapter and notice the direct words of the angel in Daniel 10:14 KJV an see if you can keep the same distinction with what is being shown to Daniel concerning the "what shall befall THY PEOPLE in the latter days".

 

[tetelestai]

lol, by all means read the entire chapter,then continue on over to the next chapter and notice the direct words of the angel in Daniel 10:14 KJV an see if you can keep the same distinction with what is being shown to Daniel concerning the "what shall befall THY PEOPLE in the latter days".

It was the Jews only who returned to Jerusalem from Babylon to rebuild the temple. It was the Jews who lived in Jerusalem.

Christ Jesus came, and united the House of Judah with the House of Israel when He made the New Covenant.

From King Rehoboam, until the cross, the Israelites were split into two houses. I know you Darby Followers don't like this, because it causes major problems for your Dispensationalism, but no matter how hard you guys try to ignore the two houses, that's the way it was.

 

[tetelestai]

:chuckle:

Why are you so afraid to tell us about the two houses?

Tell us when the split happened, and when the two houses were united again, if you believe they were united again?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chuckle:


20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;



now read verse 24

:idunno:

 

[Danoh]

Why are you so afraid to tell us about the two houses?

Tell us when the split happened, and when the two houses were united again, if you believe they were united again?

Nope - you are not interested in an answer - you are only after strife.

That is the actual question and topic of conversation you are actually about.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

That passage describes your actual heart.

Thus, your constant goading, whether you are answered, or not.

 

[whitestone]

It was the Jews only who returned to Jerusalem from Babylon to rebuild the temple. It was the Jews who lived in Jerusalem.

Christ Jesus came, and united the House of Judah with the House of Israel when He made the New Covenant.

From King Rehoboam, until the cross, the Israelites were split into two houses. I know you Darby Followers don't like this, because it causes major problems for your Dispensationalism, but no matter how hard you guys try to ignore the two houses, that's the way it was.

So in Jeremiah 29:5 KJV (but read the whole chapter) it is said that they would be taken into captivity and it would be for a long time Jeremiah 29:28 KJV .

Now at some point all this would end and the Kingdom would be restored Acts 1:6-7 KJV and after what is being told to Daniel about "his people" then and only after the entire set of times of their captivity have been accomplished then they wont be ruled by the kingdom’s any longer.

But the issue is this that is in those days Rome,the fourth beast,great and terrible is still in charge and still over the "thy people" just like Jeremiah and the angel said.

So then along comes Paul,(Romans 13:1 KJV),Peter,(1Peter 2:13-14 KJV) and the writer of Hebrews,(Hebrews 13:17 KJV) and as if they still think the fourth beast is still in power(Rome) they tell us to acknowledge the authority as if from God,(Romans 13:1 KJV).

Now so what do you suggest Israel do should they take the advice of the apostles and obey the authority set over them in ad66(Rome=4th beast) or rebel and act as though the 4th beast no longer has them in exile like Jeremiah,the angel and Daniel said?

Now somebody is really confusing something that is some conclude that the 70 weeks had all come to it's finality by ad70. In ad66 if you notice those same "thy people" decided to revolt against the authority of the 4th beast better known as the "first Jewish revolt" and it backfired,right?

So who is right,is it the apostles advising that they acknowledge that authority as by God or revolt and act as if that forth beast no longer has authority over them and it's time has ended?

P.S. maintain the distinction...

 

[Danoh]

So in Jeremiah 29:5 KJV (but read the whole chapter) it is said that they would be taken into captivity and it would be for a long time Jeremiah 29:28 KJV .

Now at some point all this would end and the Kingdom would be restored Acts 1:6-7 KJV and after what is being told to Daniel about "his people" then and only after the entire set of times of their captivity have been accomplished then they wont be ruled by the kingdom’s any longer.

But the issue is this that is in those days Rome,the fourth beast,great and terrible is still in charge and still over the "thy people" just like Jeremiah and the angel said.

So then along comes Paul,(Romans 13:1 KJV),Peter,(1Peter 2 KJV) and the writer of Hebrews,(Hebrews 13:17 KJV) and as if they still think the fourth beast is still in power(Rome) they tell us to acknowledge the authority as if from God,(Romans 13:1 KJV).

Now so what do you suggest Israel do should they take the advice of the apostles and obey the authority set over them in ad66(Rome=4th beast) or rebel and act as though the 4th beast no longer has them in exile like Jeremiah,the angel and Daniel said?

Now somebody is really confusing something that is some conclude that the 70 weeks had all come to it's finality by ad70. In ad66 if you notice those same "thy people" decided to revolt against the authority of the 4th beast better known as the "first Jewish revolt" and it backfired,right?

So who is right,is it the apostles advising that they acknowledge that authority as by God or revolt and act as if that forth beast no longer has authority over them and it's time has ended?

P.S. maintain the distinction...

He is not interested in any of that.

He is only after strife.

That is the actual question and topic of conversation he is actually about.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

That passage describes him perfectly.

Thus, his constant goading, whether he is answered, or not.

To your post, whitestone..

My understanding is that after God turned from Israel in His wrath in Acts 7, per 1 Thess. 2; for their continued rebellion against Him and His Christ, Acts 4; He placed His Prophesied actual outpouring of His wrath prior to His blessing them, on hold, Romans 9.

Israel was now alone without Him; headed down their own path; towards the 70AD they brought on themselves absent of His deliverance.

Thus, what the Lord had Prophesied would happen to them under the Romans had not been brought about by God; for He was out of their picture as a nation after Acts 7.

And He has been out of their picture to this very day, during this temporary, neither Jew, nor Gentile Mystery Age New Man, He began in, through, and with His Mystery revelation to a New Apostle - said Mystery's Age's distinct Apostle; the Apostle Paul, until it's fullness become in, Rom. 11.

 

[tetelestai]

So in Jeremiah 29:5 KJV (but read the whole chapter) it is said that they would be taken into captivity and it would be for a long time Jeremiah 29:28 KJV .

Now at some point all this would end and the Kingdom would be restored Acts 1:6-7 KJV and after what is being told to Daniel about "his people" then and only after the entire set of times of their captivity have been accomplished then they wont be ruled by the kingdom’s any longer.

You're way off.

Daniel was telling the Jews to build houses in Babylon because the Jews were going to be held captive there for 70 years.

That happened.

Then Daniel prophesied that the Jews would return from captivity to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple and the city. That happened around 538BC, and has absolutely nothing to do with Acts 1.

 

[tetelestai]

But the issue is this that is in those days Rome,the fourth beast,great and terrible is still in charge and still over the "thy people" just like Jeremiah and the angel said.

Correct.

So then along comes Paul,(Romans 13:1 KJV),Peter,(1Peter 2:13-14 KJV) and the writer of Hebrews,(Hebrews 13:17 KJV) and as if they still think the fourth beast is still in power(Rome) they tell us to acknowledge the authority as if from God,(Romans 13:1 KJV).

Even Jesus said "render unto caesar what is caesar's", so what you say above is also correct.

Now so what do you suggest Israel do should they take the advice of the apostles and obey the authority set over them in ad66(Rome=4th beast) or rebel and act as though the 4th beast no longer has them in exile like Jeremiah,the angel and Daniel said?

They weren't in exile. The exile had ended hundreds of years earlier.

Now somebody is really confusing something that is some conclude that the 70 weeks had all come to it's finality by ad70.

The 70 weeks were done by 70AD.

In ad66 if you notice those same "thy people" decided to revolt against the authority of the 4th beast better known as the "first Jewish revolt" and it backfired,right?

No one ever told the Jews to revolt. Yet, because they revolted, they were killed, and their city, and their temple were destroyed exactly how Jesus said it would.

So who is right,is it the apostles advising that they acknowledge that authority as by God or revolt and act as if that forth beast no longer has authority over them and it's time has ended?

The Jews weren't living in exile in the first century.

 

[tetelestai]

Thus, what the Lord had Prophesied would happen to them under the Romans had not been brought about by God; for He was out of their picture as a nation after Acts 7.

100% WRONG!

It was judgment on the unbelieving Jews and Jerusalem.

You don't like the facts because the facts destroy your ridiculous "Israel's prophetic clock" being stopped theory.

 

[whitestone]

You're way off.

Daniel was telling the Jews to build houses in Babylon because the Jews were going to be held captive there for 70 years.

That happened.

Then Daniel prophesied that the Jews would return from captivity to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple and the city. That happened around 538BC, and has absolutely nothing to do with Acts 1.

lol,no Jeremiah is who told them to build houses and dwell in them because they were going to be in exile as punishment in Babylon 70 years.

Then in it's midst Daniel was shown what would befall his people Daniel 10:14 KJV ...

So what was shown to Daniel was not only the 70 years in exile in Babylon,beast1 but beast #2,#3 and beast "number four".

Then in about ad66 they decided that beast number four no longer applied and revolted and tried to repel it's authority off of them because they thought for sure it was over and found out it was not yet divided into it's ten horns and the little one had not yet come.

That's why Daniel beheld until the stone was hurled at it's ten toes. And is why the apostles realized to honer it's authority over them as ordained by God and is also why the second century church leaders pointed out that you/us/ should watch for Rome to be divided into the ten http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103526.htm .

In Revelation 17:12 KJV if you notice it is pointed out that those ten kings had not received their kingdom yet but would in the future...

 

[Tambora]

My understanding is that after God turned from Israel in His wrath in Acts 7, per 1 Thess. 2; for their continued rebellion against Him and His Christ, Acts 4; He placed His Prophesied actual outpouring of His wrath prior to His blessing them, on hold, Romans 9.

Israel was now alone without Him; headed down their own path; towards the 70AD they brought on themselves absent of His deliverance.

Thus, what the Lord had Prophesied would happen to them under the Romans had not been brought about by God; for He was out of their picture as a nation after Acts 7.

And He has been out of their picture to this very day, during this temporary, neither Jew, nor Gentile Mystery Age New Man, He began in, through, and with His Mystery revelation to a New Apostle - said Mystery's Age's distinct Apostle; the Apostle Paul, until it's fullness become in, Rom. 11.

i highlighted in red the part of your post I would like for you to clarify.

If it was Jesus that prophesied what the Romans would do in AD70, then how could you say that all prophesy for Israel was put on hold before AD70?
And I don't understand how you can say that Jesus (who is God) told this would happen by the Romans in AD70, but then say what the Romans did in AD70 was not by God.

 

[Danoh]

100% WRONG!

It was judgment on the unbelieving Jews and Jerusalem.

You don't like the facts because the facts destroy your ridiculous "Israel's prophetic clock" being stopped theory.

Yep - that is all you are actually all about...

Because you are not interested in an answer - you are only after strife.

That is the actual question and topic of conversation you are actually about.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

That passage describes your actual heart.

Thus, your constant goading, whether you are answered, or not.

Anyone who brothers with you beyond pointing this out about you is merely of your same stripe in a different color.

From here on out, this will be my only response to you.

 

[Wick Stick]

So in Jeremiah 29:5 KJV (but read the whole chapter) it is said that they would be taken into captivity and it would be for a long time Jeremiah 29:28 KJV .

Now at some point all this would end and the Kingdom would be restored Acts 1:6-7 KJV and after what is being told to Daniel about "his people" then and only after the entire set of times of their captivity have been accomplished then they wont be ruled by the kingdom’s any longer.

But the issue is this that is in those days Rome,the fourth beast,great and terrible is still in charge and still over the "thy people" just like Jeremiah and the angel said.

So then along comes Paul,(Romans 13:1 KJV),Peter,(1Peter 2:13-14 KJV) and the writer of Hebrews,(Hebrews 13:17 KJV) and as if they still think the fourth beast is still in power(Rome) they tell us to acknowledge the authority as if from God,(Romans 13:1 KJV).

Now so what do you suggest Israel do should they take the advice of the apostles and obey the authority set over them in ad66(Rome=4th beast) or rebel and act as though the 4th beast no longer has them in exile like Jeremiah,the angel and Daniel said?

Now somebody is really confusing something that is some conclude that the 70 weeks had all come to it's finality by ad70. In ad66 if you notice those same "thy people" decided to revolt against the authority of the 4th beast better known as the "first Jewish revolt" and it backfired,right?

So who is right,is it the apostles advising that they acknowledge that authority as by God or revolt and act as if that forth beast no longer has authority over them and it's time has ended?

P.S. maintain the distinction...

The fourth beast was the Seleucid empire, not the Romans. Fix that, and the rest all falls into line. The captivity ended with the establishment of the Hasmonean empire.

 

[Wick Stick]

Tell us when the split happened, and when the two houses were united again, if you believe they were united again?

The split happened after Solomon's death, when God took the 10 tribes away from Rehoboam and gave them to his general, Jeroboam.

During his ministry, Jesus began the process of re-collecting the "lost tribes." He commissioned the 12 to continue that work, and if we believe Matthew 19:28, He intended the twelve to become heads of the twelve tribes in a reunited kingdom. In the physical, that unification failed, but perhaps the physical was not what was intended. "My kingdom is not of this world."

 

[whitestone]

The fourth beast was the Seleucid empire, not the Romans. Fix that, and the rest all falls into line. The captivity ended with the establishment of the Hasmonean empire.

lol,I think I'll stick with the Acts 1:6-7 KJV scripture I put in paragraph two where the disciples ask Jesus when the kingdom would be restored and Jesus speaks of it as though they were still awaiting it in the future...

 

[tetelestai]

lol,I think I'll stick with the Acts 1:6-7 KJV scripture I put in paragraph two where the disciples ask Jesus when the kingdom would be restored and Jesus speaks of it as though they were still awaiting it in the future...

Nothing in Acts 1:6-7 suggests it was going to be an earthly kingdom.

The Disciples thought it was going to be an earthly kingdom. However, we now know that it wasn't going to be an earthly kingdom.

We now know that it is a spiritual kingdom, and that it is not on planet earth.

Even though the Disciples were told it wasn't an earthly kingdom, they still thought it was going to be one.

(John 18:36) Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world."

It always amazes me how you Zionists/Futurists/Dispies can read the above verse, and still say there is going to be an earthly kingdom. Even the Apostle Paul makes it clear that it's the Jerusalem that is above, who is the mother of us all.

Yet, you guys still look to the Jerusalem in the Middle East.