ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[God's Truth]

He did? Such as washing of hands before a meal?



So no difference between what Jesus told the 12 to teach prior to His death and what they preached after? Nothing at all?

What did the council say about things offered to idols in Acts 15? What did Paul say about it in His epistles? And why did those in Acts 15:5 seem to think Paul's converts should be circumcised and keep the Law?

The apostles were persecuted for a reason

Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.


Did you read that? Paul says IF he is STILL preaching circumcision...

Peter was afraid and acted out of line with the truth at one time.

 

[Lighthouse]

The apostles were persecuted for a reason

Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.

Did you read that? Paul says IF he is STILL preaching circumcision...

Peter was afraid and acted out of line with the truth at one time.

English?

I also get the sense you missed my point. That's par for the course, though, with you.

 

[God's Truth]

English?

I also get the sense you missed my point. That's par for the course, though, with you.

Explain yourself better. What don't you understand about what I said?

Paul and Peter ended up suffering for preaching the truth.

If they taught different gospels, why does Paul say Peter acted out of line with the truth?

Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

 

[Interplanner]

He did? Such as washing of hands before a meal?



So no difference between what Jesus told the 12 to teach prior to His death and what they preached after? Nothing at all?

What did the council say about things offered to idols in Acts 15? What did Paul say about it in His epistles? And why did those in Acts 15:5 seem to think Paul's converts should be circumcised and keep the Law?

Light,
you are very late to threads that are about this, such as 'no awareness of the cross' or ''unawareness of the cross' theory flops in John'. The disciples were suppressing things, which cause the outbursts, until after the resurrection when the Spirit worked.

as for the minimum of rules that kept the Christians separate from the world, in Acts 15's council, it is hardly a full adoption of Judaism. There were things from the law that simply didn't apply anymore, and other things needed to be done to keep a person separate, that weren't 'written' anywhere. I don't see where the early Christians outrageously offended Judaism, but they did change from it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Light,
you are very late to threads that are about this, such as 'no awareness of the cross' or ''unawareness of the cross' theory flops in John'. The disciples were suppressing things, which cause the outbursts, until after the resurrection when the Spirit worked.

as for the minimum of rules that kept the Christians separate from the world, in Acts 15's council, it is hardly a full adoption of Judaism. There were things from the law that simply didn't apply anymore, and other things needed to be done to keep a person separate, that weren't 'written' anywhere. I don't see where the early Christians outrageously offended Judaism, but they did change from it.

Nice opinions, Dr Phil.

 

[Interplanner]

While the D'ists like to point out that Paul did a vow and shaved his head for Passover, I don't see where they talk about Paul asking God to strike the high priest, 23:3. And what is v5 about? . So much for 'not offending' Judaism. If anyone thinks the action that happens in Acts is 'doctrine' then I guess it is a Christian doctrine not to know who you are talking about before you call down curses. Which sort of sounds like the 'club' on TOL.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

While the D'ists like to point out that Paul did a vow and shaved his head for Passover, I don't see where they talk about Paul asking God to strike the high priest, 23:3. And what is v5 about? . So much for 'not offending' Judaism. If anyone thinks the action that happens in Acts is 'doctrine' then I guess it is a Christian doctrine not to know who you are talking about before you call down curses. Which sort of sounds like the 'club' on TOL.

Nice gotcha post, Dr Phil.

 

[Right Divider]

While the D'ists like to point out that Paul did a vow and shaved his head for Passover, I don't see where they talk about Paul asking God to strike the high priest, 23:3. And what is v5 about? . So much for 'not offending' Judaism. If anyone thinks the action that happens in Acts is 'doctrine' then I guess it is a Christian doctrine not to know who you are talking about before you call down curses. Which sort of sounds like the 'club' on TOL.

What is "Judaism"?

 

[God's Truth]

What is "Judaism"?

It doesn't exist anymore, not like it did in the Bible times.

2 Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.


You think it still exists or that it is coming back?

Show the scriptures that say it is either of those.


Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


It is gone.

 

[Danoh]

It doesn't exist anymore, not like it did in the Bible times.

2 Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.


You think it still exists or that it is coming back?

Show the scriptures that say it is either of those.


Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


It is gone.

What saith the Scripture?

Spoiler

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Ezekiel 36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. 36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[God's Truth]

What saith the Scripture?

Spoiler

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Ezekiel 36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. 36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

You need to speak something in your own words along with scripture.

 

[Lighthouse]

Explain yourself better. What don't you understand about what I said?

Paul and Peter ended up suffering for preaching the truth.

If they taught different gospels, why does Paul say Peter acted out of line with the truth?

Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

You really don't see it, do you?

Light,
you are very late to threads that are about this, such as 'no awareness of the cross' or ''unawareness of the cross' theory flops in John'. The disciples were suppressing things, which cause the outbursts, until after the resurrection when the Spirit worked.

as for the minimum of rules that kept the Christians separate from the world, in Acts 15's council, it is hardly a full adoption of Judaism. There were things from the law that simply didn't apply anymore, and other things needed to be done to keep a person separate, that weren't 'written' anywhere. I don't see where the early Christians outrageously offended Judaism, but they did change from it.

How was Israel provoked to jealousy?

 

[God's Truth]

You really don't see it, do you?



How was Israel provoked to jealousy?

You really don't see it do you?

It is good if anyone get jealous of your relationship with God and bring to the observer a striving for the same.

 

[Interplanner]

You really don't see it, do you?



How was Israel provoked to jealousy?

By hearing from the apostles that non-Jews were excelling in the mission work that was intended for them. See the middle of Rom 10. Paul then tried to further provoke them to work in the mission in ch 11. Because they do have some advantages by way of background that would make them effective communicators of the Gospel.

 

[DAN P]

It doesn't exist anymore, not like it did in the Bible times.

2 Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.


You think it still exists or that it is coming back?

Show the scriptures that say it is either of those.

Hi and Rom 11:8 , Israel was given the spirit of STUPOR , eyes to see not and ears to hear not , until this day !!

And 2 Cor 3 :14-17 says tha Isarel has a VAIL ovever there heart and the Law of Moses was set aside in Acts 28:28 !!

Bur in Rom 11:23 God is going to GRAFT Israel in again and the Greek verb SHALL BE GRAFTHED IN is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE mood which means it is a FACT and it will happen !!

The FUTURE TENSE has yet to come after Rom 11:25 and verse 26 sAY WHEN !!

dan p

 

[Interplanner]

DanP wrote:
Isarel has a VAIL ovever there heart and the Law of Moses was set aside in Acts 28:28 !!


???

 

[Danoh]

DanP wrote:
Isarel has a VAIL ovever there heart and the Law of Moses was set aside in Acts 28:28 !!


???

Doesn't matter. He's off anyway.

"That righteousness which is of the Law" was set aside decades earlier.

After Israel as a nation was proven by The Law through the Spirit speaking via Stepen as having continued in their forefathers' Uncircumcised hearts to the Law, in Acts 7, and thus "under sin" with Gentiles.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[God's Truth]

By hearing from the apostles that non-Jews were excelling in the mission work that was intended for them. See the middle of Rom 10. Paul then tried to further provoke them to work in the mission in ch 11. Because they do have some advantages by way of background that would make them effective communicators of the Gospel.

You make it sound like some business deal gone wrong.

Paul is showing sorrow for Jews rejecting salvation.

 

[Danoh]

You make it sound like some business deal gone wrong.

Paul is showing sorrow for Jews rejecting salvation.

Yep "this witness" on you part, as to the above, GT "is true" :thumb:

Titus 1:12-13.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and Rom 11:8 , Israel was given the spirit of STUPOR , eyes to see not and ears to hear not , until this day !!

Paul is quoting an old testament prophecy of when God would cut off and harden some Jews.

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,


So why did God cut off and harden some Jews?
God did that because He was making a new covenant.
The old covenant did not require faith, it required works for the people to clean themselves.
God did not like those Jews who would sin, give a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins.
God said there were be a new covenant based on faith.
Some Jews had faith and some did not.
Those Jews who had faith were called the lost sheep of Israel.
Those were the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

And 2 Cor 3 :14-17 says tha Isarel has a VAIL ovever there heart and the Law of Moses was set aside in Acts 28:28 !!

Of course not every single Jew rejected Jesus, for Paul says so himself:

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

See, Paul is merely showing that God has not cut off and hardened the whole nation of Israel forever, without any chance of salvation.
It must have seemed as if God cut off and hardened a whole ethnicity forever.

Bur in Rom 11:23 God is going to GRAFT Israel in again and the Greek verb SHALL BE GRAFTHED IN is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE mood which means it is a FACT and it will happen !!

Again; the scripture is not saying every single Jew will be saved one day. The scripture is saying all Jews are not cut off forever.
The Jews have just as much a chance to get saved as any other nationality

The FUTURE TENSE has yet to come after Rom 11:25 and verse 26 sAY WHEN !!

dan p

Paul is again just explaining that Jews are not cut off forever, and if they do NOT PERSIST in UNBELIEF, they can be grafted back in.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.