ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

God's Truth

New member
Scripturally, you and GT are both partly right on this one.

At the same time, you are both off-base on it; Dispensationally.

Spoiler

And opposition is good for the Bible student, only to the extent to which said opposition is viewed as an opportunity to reflect a bit more on what one holds to, in light of the other side's assertions about one passage or another.

This too is also how MAD re-emerged as a Bible Study Principle.

A principle that is at its' best when one is being truly objective.

A principle that skirting those assertions one does not agree with, and or spitting on anyone who does not agree with one's take on the Scripture; only holds one back from seeing much more of, and through...

The Lord is dealing with the following types, there, in John 6...

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Picture those Jews in prayer these days at The Wailing Wall.

Their prayer is not only from the heart; but both physical; and physically verbal.

Their minds blinded, however, by the tradition they and their forefathers before them long ago turned the witness of the Law and the Prophets into.

But this aspect of theirs - both the verbal, and the physical: from the heart - was what the Lord had rightly expected of them.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight. 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see? 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

See that - they fail to verbally confess that He is the Christ.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

That their is verbal and physical.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

The Lord had rightly expected them to Believe on Him from their heart; and to verbally confess Him; and physically worship Him.

Just as they had been taught to from childhood and during their worship of Him throughout their lives, in their hearing and or reading of the Law and the Prophets both physically (their bowing to The Book) and verbally (their speaking The Words of The Book) from the heart.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

6:20 And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you? 6:21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand: 6:22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: 6:23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers. 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Belief is Scriptural: is found being required throughout all Scripture.

The expected manner of its expression, however; is Dispensational: depends upon what God is doing when; as to who through whom; where; why, how, in light of what, and so on...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

But now?

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Danoh, you have not disproved what I said.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Scripturally, you and GT are both partly right on this one.

At the same time, you are both off-base on it; Dispensationally.

Spoiler

And opposition is good for the Bible student, only to the extent to which said opposition is viewed as an opportunity to reflect a bit more on what one holds to, in light of the other side's assertions about one passage or another.

This too is also how MAD re-emerged as a Bible Study Principle.

A principle that is at its' best when one is being truly objective.

A principle that skirting those assertions one does not agree with, and or spitting on anyone who does not agree with one's take on the Scripture; only holds one back from seeing much more of, and through...

The Lord is dealing with the following types, there, in John 6...

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Picture those Jews in prayer these days at The Wailing Wall.

Their prayer is not only from the heart; but both physical; and physically verbal.

Their minds blinded, however, by the tradition they and their forefathers before them long ago turned the witness of the Law and the Prophets into.

But this aspect of theirs - both the verbal, and the physical: from the heart - was what the Lord had rightly expected of them.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight. 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see? 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

See that - they fail to verbally confess that He is the Christ.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

That their is verbal and physical.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

The Lord had rightly expected them to Believe on Him from their heart; and to verbally confess Him; and physically worship Him.

Just as they had been taught to from childhood and during their worship of Him throughout their lives, in their hearing and or reading of the Law and the Prophets both physically (their bowing to The Book) and verbally (their speaking The Words of The Book) from the heart.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

6:20 And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you? 6:21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand: 6:22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: 6:23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers. 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Belief is Scriptural: is found being required throughout all Scripture.

The expected manner of its expression, however; is Dispensational: depends upon what God is doing when; as to who through whom; where; why, how, in light of what, and so on...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

But now?

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

I wasn't arguing dispensationally. I was pointing her back to where her declaration began, and to what was taught right there.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Would you rather I rebuke you in public after you slander me?

It is Christian to tell you personally and privately.

You are a bitter and resentful person.

You prove you do not not behave as a Christian and you do not know the scriptures well enough.

Matthew 15:18 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

You are a deceived liar.

Who do you think you are passing judgment on all believers when you are the worst case of disobedience on the entire board.



I am not bitter and it is you who starts calling people servants of satan when they try to correct you.

I have never known a greater hypocrite than you.

If you repented of your silly idea that Mary was the mother of God then you might get to know the real Jesus.

LA
 

God's Truth

New member
You are a deceived liar.

That is you false judge and accuser.

Who do you think you are passing judgment on all believers when you are the worst case of disobedience on the entire board.

Listen to your lie. Tell me where I have passed judgment on all believers?

God says the way you judge it is exactly as you will be judged.

When they say I am a liar and not saved, it is EXACTLY what they are; and now you too can join the ranks of those who damn themselves.


I am not bitter and it is you who starts calling people servants of satan when they try to correct you.

No false judge, they are not trying to correct me, they tell me I am a servant of Satan so I tell them them they have so judged themselves.

And you are bitter. You try to say something hateful to me every chance you get.

I have never known a greater hypocrite than you.

If you repented of your silly idea that Mary was the mother of God then you might get to know the real Jesus.

LA

Where have I ever said Mary is the mother of God?

You prove you are a person full of falseness.
 

God's Truth

New member
Like everyone that is saved they placed their faith in the finished work of Jesus.

Why are you giving LA a thanks for lying about me? You are wishy washy. You gave me a thanks the other day for telling her that she was wrong for attacking me and now you thank her for going back on the attack.
 

God's Truth

New member
Like everyone that is saved they placed their faith in the finished work of Jesus.

Jesus saves people all on his own, and he chooses whom he saves. He says he chooses to save those who obey.

Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Read here where Paul gets saved.

Acts 22:12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.


Now read here where Ananias tells Paul that God has chosen Paul to be taught by Jesus the gospel to preach to all.

14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Read here how Jesus tells Paul to leave Jerusalem because the people there, the Jews, would not accept Paul's testimony about Jesus.

17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’

This is important, read here now how Paul says the Jews know that he imprisoned and beat those who believed in Jesus. Paul acknowledges that the Jews do NOT trust Paul and they think that he is trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus so that Paul could have them imprisoned and beat too.

19 “‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’

21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”

See how Jesus says he is sending Paul far away to the Gentiles. Jesus is NOT sending Paul far away to the Gentiles to give them a different gospel, he is sending him far away to the Gentiles because the Jews are trying to kill him.

Then why is his message different?

Well why didn't you tell me what I misunderstood?
That's not what I said.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Danoh was intent on providing a lecture about how we are to study.
His way or the highway.

Surely none can manage without him. :chuckle:
please-490.gif
dont-go-smiley.gif
 

God's Truth

New member

Then why is his message different?


That's not what I said.

Paul's message is not different. It is a message about getting reconciled to God through Jesus, it is about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul doesn't change the way the Way tells us how to get saved. No way does Paul warn against another gospel while he preaches another gospel.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Paul doesn't change the way the Way tells us how to get saved.

Why do you refuse to believe what Paul says about how a person is saved?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Do you think that Paul just forgot to mention something else a person must do to be saved?

Evidently you do! And according to you the gospel is not the power of God unto those who believe because it takes more than believing to be saved. But once again Paul's own words condemn your ideas:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​
 

God's Truth

New member
Why do you refuse to believe what Paul says about how a person is saved?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Do you think that Paul just forgot to mention something else a person must do to be saved?

Why don't you believe that those who asked Paul what they must do WERE TOLD TO REPENT of their sins?

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.


Did you read that? Paul HAD TO SPEAK the word of the LORD TO THEM. What does the Lord teach? The Lord teaches to repent of sins!


33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway


Did you read that? They heard the word of Jesus about repenting of sins, and then THEY WERE water BAPTIZED with the baptism of REPENTANCE OF SINS.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
She likes to argue against strawmen.
I've noticed.

Paul's message is not different. It is a message about getting reconciled to God through Jesus, it is about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul doesn't change the way the Way tells us how to get saved. No way does Paul warn against another gospel while he preaches another gospel.

How certain are you that there are no differences in Paul's message when compared to Peter's? How do you explain Acts 15?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I've noticed.



How certain are you that there are no differences in Paul's message when compared to Peter's? How do you explain Act 15?




A different audience does not change a message like the Gospel. Anyway, there is no difference to explain between them in Acts 15, it's between the Gospel and the disturbing message mentioned in v2 from those who were current or former Pharisee.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
While the earthly temple was still standing, Jesus told the believing Jews to do what the Pharisees said to do.
He did? Such as washing of hands before a meal?

A different audience does not change a message like the Gospel. Anyway, there is no difference to explain between them in Acts 15, it's between the Gospel and the disturbing message mentioned in v2 from those who were current or former Pharisee.

So no difference between what Jesus told the 12 to teach prior to His death and what they preached after? Nothing at all?

What did the council say about things offered to idols in Acts 15? What did Paul say about it in His epistles? And why did those in Acts 15:5 seem to think Paul's converts should be circumcised and keep the Law?
 
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