ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

turbosixx

New member
Of course, but RD believes in 2P2P. That is the belief that there is another program operating no matter what the NT says and so some promises to the ethne Israel have to happen for completely different reasons than Christ and the Gospel. Or you have to believe the Bible is divided or schitzophrenic. That kind of dividing is what he thinks "rightly dividing" is. Never mind the fact that that passage is about administering certain problems in the church about widows and single mothers and should be translated 'proper handling.'

I don't see two people now or in the future. There is only one olive tree in Romans 11 and the branches are Jews and Gentiles attached to the same tree. To divide the Jews and Gentiles again would be going backwards.

I agree, the word isn't about dividing at all. Greek has a word for divide and it's not used in "rightly divide". I understand the word to mean skill or accuracy which today's English translations do a better job in this particular instance.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I don't see two people now or in the future. There is only one olive tree in Romans 11 and the branches are Jews and Gentiles attached to the same tree. To divide the Jews and Gentiles again would be going backwards.
So you guess that you never understood that God separated Israel from the rest of the people on earth.

I agree, the word isn't about dividing at all. Greek has a word for divide and it's not used in "rightly divide". I understand the word to mean skill or accuracy which today's English translations do a better job in this particular instance.
Then, once again, you simply do not understand the truth.

The Greek word (if you want to Greek it) is:
G3718 ὀρθοτομέω orthotomeo (or-tho-to-me'-ō) v.
1. to make a straight cut or slice.
2. (figuratively) to rightly dissect (the divine message); (i.e. discern and explain).
[from a compound of G3717 and the base of G5114]
KJV: rightly divide
Root(s): G3717, G5114
Compare: G873, G1266
See also: G5114

Also the root words:
G3717 ὀρθός orthos (or-thos') adj.
1. upright (as rising).
2. (perpendicularly) erect.
3. (figuratively) honest.
4. (horizontally) level or direct.
[probably from the base of G3735]
KJV: straight, upright
Root(s): G3735
G5114 τομώτερος tomoteros (to-mō'-te-ros) adj.
sharper, more keen.
[comparative of a derivative of the primary temno “to cut” (more comprehensive or decisive than G2875, as if by a single stroke, whereas that implies repeated blows, like hacking)]
KJV: sharper
Compare: G664
See also: G2875

So the word is NOT about "properly handling", but about making a CUT.... a distinction is what Paul is talking about.

Do you even know what the "word of truth" is that Paul is talking about?
 

turbosixx

New member
So you guess that you never understood that God separated Israel from the rest of the people on earth.

Two people being two different sets of God's people. Yes, I understand God set the Jews apart. In the OT there was God's people, the Jews, and then everyone else were Gentiles. I believe that is the same situation today. God's people, Christians, and then everyone else.




Then, once again, you simply do not understand the truth.

The Greek word (if you want to Greek it) is:
G3718 ὀρθοτομέω orthotomeo (or-tho-to-me'-ō) v.
1. to make a straight cut or slice.
2. (figuratively) to rightly dissect (the divine message); (i.e. discern and explain).
[from a compound of G3717 and the base of G5114]
KJV: rightly divide
Root(s): G3717, G5114
Compare: G873, G1266
See also: G5114

Also the root words:
G3717 ὀρθός orthos (or-thos') adj.
1. upright (as rising).
2. (perpendicularly) erect.
3. (figuratively) honest.
4. (horizontally) level or direct.
[probably from the base of G3735]
KJV: straight, upright
Root(s): G3735
G5114 τομώτερος tomoteros (to-mō'-te-ros) adj.
sharper, more keen.
[comparative of a derivative of the primary temno “to cut” (more comprehensive or decisive than G2875, as if by a single stroke, whereas that implies repeated blows, like hacking)]
KJV: sharper
Compare: G664
See also: G2875

So the word is NOT about "properly handling", but about making a CUT.... a distinction is what Paul is talking about.

The gospel is all about unity or one, not dividing.

I believe the word is describing the skill in making the cut not the cut itself. I see no mention of separating or dividing.

Strongs G3718
orthotomeó: to cut straight
Original Word: ὀρθοτομέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: orthotomeó
Phonetic Spelling: (or-thot-om-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I cut straight, handle correctly
Definition: I cut straight; met: I handle correctly, teach rightly.

Thayer's
ὀρθοτομέω, ὀρθοτόμω; (ὀρθοτομος cutting straight, and this from ὀρθός and τέμνω);
1. to cut straight: τάς ὁδούς, to cut straight ways, i. e. to proceed by straight paths, hold a straight course, equivalent to to do right (for יִשֵּׁר), Proverbs 3:6; Proverbs 11:5 (viam secare, Vergil Aen. 6, 899).

2. dropping the idea of cutting, to make straight and smooth; Vulg.rectetracto, to handle aright: τόν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, i. e. to teach the truth correctly and directly, 2 Timothy 2:15; τόν ἀληθῆ λόγον, Eustathius, opuscc., p. 115, 41. (Not found elsewhere (except in ecclesiastical writings (Winer's Grammar, 26); e. g. constt. apost. 7, 31 ἐν τῷ τοῦ κυρίου δόγμασιν; cf. Suicer ii. 508f). Cf. καινοτομέω, to cut new veins in mining; dropping the notion of cutting, to make something new, introduce new things, make innovations or changes, etc.)




I have to believe if Paul's point was to divide or separate into parts then this word would have been used. Here is the word for divide.
Strongs G1266
diamerizó: to distribute, to divide
Original Word: διαμερίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diamerizó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-am-er-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I divide up into parts, break up, distribute
Definition: I divide up into parts, break up; I distribute.




Do you even know what the "word of truth" is that Paul is talking about?

I sure hope so, my eternal destiny is counting on it. That's why I'm here to challenge what I understand to be truth.
 
Last edited:

Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes, I understand God set the Jews apart. In the OT there was God's people, the Jews, and then everyone else, Gentiles. I believe that is the same situation today. God's people, Christians, and then everyone else.






The gospel is all about unity or one, not dividing.

I believe the word is used to describe the skill in making the cut not the cut itself. I see no mention of separating or dividing.

Strongs G3718
orthotomeó: to cut straight
Original Word: ὀρθοτομέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: orthotomeó
Phonetic Spelling: (or-thot-om-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I cut straight, handle correctly
Definition: I cut straight; met: I handle correctly, teach rightly.


Here is the word for divide
Strongs G1266
diamerizó: to distribute, to divide
Original Word: διαμερίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diamerizó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-am-er-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I divide up into parts, break up, distribute
Definition: I divide up into parts, break up; I distribute.






I sure hope so, my eternal destiny is counting on it. That's why I'm here to challenge what I understand to be truth.



Yes, there needed to be separation from child-sacrifice cults. But that was in the 2nd mill BC. In the present tense of the NT, the problem was quite different, and Judaism was part of the weak and miserable principles of the world dividing the world.

The verb 'airesa' in Gal is not firstly 'heresy' as we know it--although it leads into it. It is division.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Two people being two different sets of God's people. Yes, I understand God set the Jews apart. In the OT there was God's people, the Jews, and then everyone else were Gentiles. I believe that is the same situation today. God's people, Christians, and then everyone else.
Then you could be a Mid-Acts dispensationalist.

The gospel is all about unity or one, not dividing.
That's real cute and all....

But the fact is that there are difference gospels. Anyone can see that.

I believe the word is describing the skill in making the cut not the cut itself. I see no mention of separating or dividing.
Stay blind if that's what you like.

Strongs G3718
orthotomeó: to cut straight
Original Word: ὀρθοτομέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: orthotomeó
Phonetic Spelling: (or-thot-om-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I cut straight, handle correctly
Definition: I cut straight; met: I handle correctly, teach rightly.

Thayer's
ὀρθοτομέω, ὀρθοτόμω; (ὀρθοτομος cutting straight, and this from ὀρθός and τέμνω);
1. to cut straight: τάς ὁδούς, to cut straight ways, i. e. to proceed by straight paths, hold a straight course, equivalent to to do right (for יִשֵּׁר), Proverbs 3:6; Proverbs 11:5 (viam secare, Vergil Aen. 6, 899).

2. dropping the idea of cutting, to make straight and smooth; Vulg.rectetracto, to handle aright: τόν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, i. e. to teach the truth correctly and directly, 2 Timothy 2:15; τόν ἀληθῆ λόγον, Eustathius, opuscc., p. 115, 41. (Not found elsewhere (except in ecclesiastical writings (Winer's Grammar, 26); e. g. constt. apost. 7, 31 ἐν τῷ τοῦ κυρίου δόγμασιν; cf. Suicer ii. 508f). Cf. καινοτομέω, to cut new veins in mining; dropping the notion of cutting, to make something new, introduce new things, make innovations or changes, etc.)
More cuteness.

I have to believe if Paul's point was to divide or separate into parts then this word would have been used. Here is the word for divide.
Strongs G1266
diamerizó: to distribute, to divide
Original Word: διαμερίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diamerizó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-am-er-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I divide up into parts, break up, distribute
Definition: I divide up into parts, break up; I distribute.
So you now you know what Paul should have used. Don't let your big ego get in your way.

I sure hope so, my eternal destiny is counting on it. That's why I'm here to challenge what I understand to be truth.
What is the "word of truth" that Paul says that we are to rightly divide?

Paul used the words that he wanted to use in the way that God wanted him to use them.

You've already decided what it means before you even get there.

Please start a thread and describe in detail what this ONE true gospel is. Don't leave anything out.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Yes, there needed to be separation from child-sacrifice cults. But that was in the 2nd mill BC. In the present tense of the NT, the problem was quite different, and Judaism was part of the weak and miserable principles of the world dividing the world.

The verb 'airesa' in Gal is not firstly 'heresy' as we know it--although it leads into it. It is division.

Nevertheless this interp mistake is straining with gnats and to the exclusion of lighted camels, looking back toward the hazy mirror and not to Christ, therefore ignoring Eph 5D and Mt6Z.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I believe there's only one.

Would you say these are all the same or different.

Gospel of Christ
Gospel of God
Gospel of grace
Gospel of peace
Only Paul uses these terms:

  • The gospel of Christ
  • The gospel of the grace of God
  • The gospel of peace
  • The gospel of the uncircumcision
  • The gospel of the circumcision
You will not find those terms anywhere else in scripture.

The word "gospel" does not even appear in "gospel" John (strange eh?).

When the 12 were sent to Israel only to preach the kingdom, they did not even know about the death of Christ.... let alone that He would die for the sins of the whole world. How could they preach "the one and only gospel" if they were leaving OUT that MOST vitally important piece of information?

The ONLY time that Jesus is quoted during His earthly ministry to Israel using the "gospel of" was "the gospel of the kingdom".

The ONLY terms used in the 4 "gospels" are:
  • The gospel of the kingdom (which Paul never used)
  • The gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
I think that you need to rethink you understanding.
 

Danoh

New member
Again, Turbo, in 2 Tim. 2:15 "rightly divide" is in contrast to and or a sharp division from verse 16's "But shun..."

Paul makes one sharp division after another between things that differ from one another not only throughout that chapter, but in that section.

He even makes use of a timeline distinction between things there.

Conclusion - one can not rightly handle any thing, let alone one's word of truth, without noting distinctions between things that differ.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Nevertheless this interp mistake is straining with gnats and to the exclusion of lighted camels, looking back toward the hazy mirror and not to Christ, therefore ignoring Eph 5D and Mt6Z.

Put down yer shovels, sit on yer a** es, light up a camel, we're in the promised land.

:crackup:
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Only Paul uses these terms:

  • The gospel of Christ
  • The gospel of the grace of God
  • The gospel of peace
  • The gospel of the uncircumcision
  • The gospel of the circumcision
You will not find those terms anywhere else in scripture.

The word "gospel" does not even appear in "gospel" John (strange eh?).

When the 12 were sent to Israel only to preach the kingdom, they did not even know about the death of Christ.... let alone that He would die for the sins of the whole world. How could they preach "the one and only gospel" if they were leaving OUT that MOST vitally important piece of information?

The ONLY time that Jesus is quoted during His earthly ministry to Israel using the "gospel of" was "the gospel of the kingdom".

The ONLY terms used in the 4 "gospels" are:
  • The gospel of the kingdom (which Paul never used)
  • The gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
I think that you need to rethink you understanding.



RD wrote:
When the 12 were sent to Israel only to preach the kingdom, they did not even know about the death of Christ.... let alone that He would die for the sins of the whole world. How could they preach "the one and only gospel" if they were leaving OUT that MOST vitally important piece of information?



This is false of course. The mission to deal with sin was clear all the way. What was not clear was what might happen to the nation during that generation with messianic zealots trying the best to revolt and impose the law harshly. Christ did want to save Israel from that kind of person and trouble, but it was pretty hopeless, and he draws a condemning connection between the teachers of the Law and the zealots.

He always was launching a mission to the nations through his own people from the beginning of his work. This is why "Paul" is not surprising with his way of putting things. Peter and Paul are deeply united in what Peter says in Acts 2, 3.

If you are infected with 2P2P, you will never see this of course. You have to be willing to discard 2P2P.
 

Right Divider

Body part
RD wrote:
When the 12 were sent to Israel only to preach the kingdom, they did not even know about the death of Christ.... let alone that He would die for the sins of the whole world. How could they preach "the one and only gospel" if they were leaving OUT that MOST vitally important piece of information?

This is false of course. The mission to deal with sin was clear all the way.
Put down your "books" and pick up THE BOOK.

The 12 were sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom in Matt. 10, you ignoramus. This was LONG before Christ told them of His impending death and EVEN THEN they did NOT understand it and it was HID from them (Luke 18:34).

What was not clear was what might happen to the nation during that generation with messianic zealots trying the best to revolt and impose the law harshly. Christ did want to save Israel from that kind of person and trouble, but it was pretty hopeless, and he draws a condemning connection between the teachers of the Law and the zealots.

He always was launching a mission to the nations through his own people from the beginning of his work. This is why "Paul" is not surprising with his way of putting things. Peter and Paul are deeply united in what Peter says in Acts 2, 3.
A bunch more of your WORTHLESS opinions based on a COMPLETE lack of knowledge about what the Bible actually says.

If you are infected with 2P2P, you will never see this of course. You have to be willing to discard 2P2P.
You are one of the MOST misinformed religious zealots here, Mr. Toxic.

Keep up the good work poster boy.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
RD wrote:
When the 12 were sent to Israel only to preach the kingdom, they did not even know about the death of Christ.... let alone that He would die for the sins of the whole world. How could they preach "the one and only gospel" if they were leaving OUT that MOST vitally important piece of information?



This is false of course. The mission to deal with sin was clear all the way. What was not clear was what might happen to the nation during that generation with messianic zealots trying the best to revolt and impose the law harshly. Christ did want to save Israel from that kind of person and trouble, but it was pretty hopeless, and he draws a condemning connection between the teachers of the Law and the zealots.

He always was launching a mission to the nations through his own people from the beginning of his work. This is why "Paul" is not surprising with his way of putting things. Peter and Paul are deeply united in what Peter says in Acts 2, 3.

If you are infected with 2P2P, you will never see this of course. You have to be willing to discard 2P2P.

Made up.

In Mt.-John, prior to the dbr, that the 12 had no idea of the impending dbr. It was hid from them.



1.The 12 did not know of the impending dbr-it was hid from them-



"For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31-32 KJV



"Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34 KJV



"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9 KJV





2. Peter tried to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death, and His death was a key component of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV:



"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21-22 KJV



"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31-32 KJV





3. Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, the 12 intially did not believe it:



"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17 KJV



"And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11 KJV



"And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11 KJV



" And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41 KJV




Show me specfic scripture, chapter and verse, from scripture, in Mt/-John, prior to the death, burial, and resurrection:



1.where the Lord Jesus Christ preached: I am going to die for your sins, be buried, and raised again so that you may be justified. Believe on my death, burial, and resurrection, and you will be saved.



2.where the 12 preached: he is going to die for your sins, be buried, and raised again so that you may be justified. Believe on His death, burial, and resurrection, and you will be saved.



3. where, in Mt.-John, prior to the dbr, was 1 Cor. 15:1-4 ever preached by anyone as a basis for justification. Chapter and verse prior to the dbr in Mt.-John. You won't find it. It is not there. It was hid from them. They were preaching, at least prior to the dbr in Mt.-John, a "the" gospel, but it was not 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV-it was "the" gospel of the kingdom, and these are not synonomys terms.






How the 12 could have preached the dbr, when it was hid from them prior to its occurrence-Luke 18:31-34 KJV; Mark 9:31-32 KJV; John 20:9 KJV? Rhetorical q.



Why did Peter tried to prevent "....died for our sins.....according to the scriptures...": Mt. 16:21 KJV; Mark 8:31KJV, the very basis of his reconciliation? Again-rhetorical q.



How the 12 could be preaching "....raised again the third day....", if it was not only hid from them, but they did not believe the resurrection, "....according to the scriptures....", even after it happened: Mt. 28:17 KJV; Mark 16:11 KJV; Luke 24:41 KJV?

Again-rhetorical q.



You, others, have been shown that "the" gospel of the kingdom is not equivalent to 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV. I cannot lay it out for you any more clearly, and it does not take an "MBA from heaven" to figure this out.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
That's some good teachin', saint john!

Thanks, and I try, Mayor. It's one of the marks of us Whalen's-connecting the dots. That is how I figgered out the Emancipation Proclamation, and the U. S. Constitution......details!
 
Top