ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[turbosixx]

The verse you quote only affirms the fact that the kingdom is not here because if it were here then we wouldn't have to be "transferred" to the kingdom. What is spoken about there is this:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

I agree that what Paul is talking about is the verse you quoted. That's how I see Christ's kingdom as a spiritual one. He said his kingdom wasn't of this world but I believe it does have an earthly component, us. We live here but our citizenship is in Heaven.

The judgment of which you speak will be a judgment of all men, whether dead or alive. The one at Matthew 25 is only in regard to those who are alive. That is not the final judgment.

Besides that, the Lord says that He will begin to sit upon His throne when He returns to the earth. And that is when He will begin to reign over His earthly kingdom:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

I'm looking at it and trying to understand what your saying. So when he comes he will sit on his throne and will judge those who are alive. I can see that from the passage but what throws me is the judgment of these people, it's eternal.
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

If they are separated and sent to eternity, who will be left. Please point out where I went off track.

That is wrong. Look at what he said again:

"It was to be set up in the days of these kings, the kings of the fourth monarchy, of which particular notice is taken (Lu. 2:1), That Christ was born when, by the decree of the emperor of Rome, all the world was taxed, which was a plain indication that that empire had become as universal as any earthly empire ever was. When these kings are contesting with each other, and in all the struggles each of the contending parties hopes to find its own account, God will do his own work and fulfil his own counsels. These kings are all enemies to Christ's kingdom, and yet it shall be set up in defiance of them." ​

So you're saying the 4th kingdom is the Roman Empire? That is when the kingdom was to be set up according to Daniel.

This discussion is about the "kingdom" and not the Body of Christ. And when the kingdom will come to the earth then God's "will" will be done on the earth as it is in heaven:

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:10).​

Clearly that is not happening now.

I know his will is being done in Heaven and I believe it is as well here on earth by the church.
Col. 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.
1 Thes. 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Pt. 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

I understand his will to be the instructions we are given and when we do them we are doing his will.
I look forward to your comments.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I understand v15-28 to be 70AD and I understand this is his second coming when he gathers those who are his as we see in the next verse.

I thought that you said that the generation living in the first century saw this:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).

After all, it was you who brought up this verse in "bold":

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:30,34).​

I agree that what Paul is talking about is the verse you quoted. That's how I see Christ's kingdom as a spiritual one. He said his kingdom wasn't of this world but I believe it does have an earthly component, us. We live here but our citizenship is in Heaven.

He said that His kingdom is not "now"of this world. He didn't say anything at all which forbids an earthly kingdom. In fact, He told His disciples to pray in this manner:

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:10).​

He was telling them to pray that the kingdom would come to the earth. Those words of the Lord cannot possibly be interpreted in any other way. Besides that, the Apostles were with the lord for forty days while He taught them the things concerning the kingdom. And after learning about the kingdom they asked the Lord the following question:

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

The Lord did not tell them that they were in error for thinking that, and only told them that they were not to know when it would happen.

So unless you think that you know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles after they had spent forty days being tutored about it by the Lord Jesus then you must realize that there will come a time when the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

If you actually think you know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles then nothing I can possibly say can change your mind!

 

[turbosixx]

So unless you think that you know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles after they had spent forty days being tutored about it by the Lord Jesus then you must realize that there will come a time when the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

If you actually think you know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles then nothing I can possibly say can change your mind!

I understand God's people set apart in the OT to be representative of his people set apart in the NT, Christians. That's what I believe Jesus means by "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." The Jews were God's people because they were born that way but that isn't the case now. Again, I believe that's why John said this "and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."

I believe that's why Paul says we are the circumcision because the physical Jews are no longer God's people.
Phil. 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— He then goes on to show that being a physical Jew was garbage compared to being in Christ.
If he is not using this analogy to show that we now are God's chosen, I would be glad to see your comments.

Paul says that his people have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge.
Rom. 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

So here's a question I have if Christ didn't establish the kingdom as prophesied. Since the Jews didn't receive the earthly kingdom of prophecy, are they justified in rejecting Christ and continuing under the law of Moses until it comes?

 

[Nick M]

So here's a question I have if Christ didn't establish the kingdom as prophesied. Since the Jews didn't receive the earthly kingdom of prophecy, are they justified in rejecting Christ and continuing under the law of Moses until it comes?

Why would they be justified? Those that don't believe are condemned already.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe that's why Paul says we are the circumcision because the physical Jews are no longer God's people.

But in the future they will once again be God's people, as this prophecy reveals:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

All those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is because their "fathers" were the ones who broke the covenant and all of those men were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And "all" of those physical descendants will know the Lord, from the least of them unto the greatest of them. And they will all have their sins forgiven. And that is exactly what Paul is speaking about here:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

The Apostles were certainly aware of what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 so they knew that in the future all of the physical descendants of Jacob (Israel) will be saved. And after spending forty days with the Lord while He taught them about the kingdom they knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

Are you under the impression that the Apostles were in error?

 

[Right Divider]

I'll keep thinking about what we've discussed and I appreciate your time.

Thanks, I also appreciate your courtesy in our discussion.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

If one is not baptized can they be saved by grace?

What if someone was alone on a desert island, with no one to water baptize them. But yet they placed their faith in Christ and repented.

What if someone were taught and believed that water baptism was unnecessary and yet gave Christ of their undying devotion?

He will judge the hearts of men. Not you or I.

Why was Christ baptized? He said to fulfill all righteousness. He nor Paul were against ceremonious righteous acts. But both were crystal clear the acts in themselves mean nothing. Only our hearts devotion in truth that He will judge.

Everyone is saved by grace.

 

[Tambora]

Daniel 2
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Did this happen in the first century?

No.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No.

Correct.
Rome did not fall apart in 70ad.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why would they be justified? Those that don't believe are condemned already.

Amen!

 

[turbosixx]

Why would they be justified? Those that don't believe are condemned already.

That's the way I understand it. There is only one way through Jesus. If they are believers then they are Christians and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

What I don't understand is are the unbelieving Jews still God's people?

 

[Nick M]

That's the way I understand it. There is only one way through Jesus. If they are believers then they are Christians and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

That is true of the Body of Christ.

What I don't understand is are the unbelieving Jews still God's people?

According to Paul, no. He said not all of Israel is Israel. White sepulchers.

 

[Tambora]

What I don't understand is are the unbelieving Jews still God's people?

Romans 11:28 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[turbosixx]

Thanks for your input.

But in the future they will once again be God's people, as this prophecy reveals:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

All those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is because their "fathers" were the ones who broke the covenant and all of those men were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And "all" of those physical descendants will know the Lord, from the least of them unto the greatest of them. And they will all have their sins forgiven. And that is exactly what Paul is speaking about here:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

The Apostles were certainly aware of what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 so they knew that in the future all of the physical descendants of Jacob (Israel) will be saved. And after spending forty days with the Lord while He taught them about the kingdom they knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

Are you under the impression that the Apostles were in error?

The Hebrew writer quotes this very passage from Jeremiah. What I understand him telling us is that the law of Moses wasn’t perfect therefore there was need for a new one that was better.
Heb. 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Then he quotes Jer. 31:31-34 and then says
Heb. 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

He goes on to describe how to old covenant worked.
Heb. 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

He then tells us that this physical arrangement will not get us to the Holy place in Heaven.
9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.


Then he tells us Jesus entered the true Holy place by his blood securing eternal redemption( perfecting the conscience of the worshiper).
9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He then plainly tells us Jesus it the mediator of the new covenant.
9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Then he says by his death it has taken effect.
9:16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

Then he tells how the physical tabernacle and priest were just copies of the true things.
9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

I would suggest that the physical Jewish people were just a copy as well of the true people today, Christians.

I believe the new covenant is in effect now.
Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, We are God’s household, Eph. 2:19.

Now back to Jeremiah. I believe if you will look at it with an opened mind you will see the church.
31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

31:34 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Rom. 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.
Christians are God’s people.

31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Can someone become a Christians without knowing Jesus?
A Christians sins are forgiven and not remembered anymore unlike under the old law.
Heb. 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


There is more I want to add but this is already longer than I like.

 

[turbosixx]

That is true of the Body of Christ.



According to Paul, no. He said not all of Israel is Israel. White sepulchers.

That's the way I see it as well.
Thanks

 

[turbosixx]

Daniel 2
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Did this happen in the first century?

What is the stone that became a great mountain and filled the whole earth?

It's going to break all these kingdoms and last forever. Do you see this as the earthly kingdom? If so will it last forever?
Dan. 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,


Would you agree the church is over every authority?
Eph. 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

 

[turbosixx]

I've said it SO many times.... this is Paul saying that UNBELIEVING Israel is "not all Israel" and NOT that any believer is Israel.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by unbelieving Israel is "not all Israel". Could you please explain it.

 

[turbosixx]

Romans 11:28 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Could you explain what this means to you. If they don't accept the gospel they are enemies is clear but since they are beloved what do you think that means?

Like, are they still his people even though they have rejected Christ or can they still be under the law of Moses and be saved that way.

The way I understand it is they are beloved but there is only one way to God and that's Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is more I want to add but this is already longer than I like.

Please answer my question here:

After spending forty days with the Lord while He taught them about the kingdom they knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

Are you under the impression that the Apostles were in error?​

Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by unbelieving Israel is "not all Israel". Could you please explain it.

There was the nation of Israel - physical descendents of Jacob.

The majority of their nation of which were in apostasy: who were not living in faithful obedience to the God of their fathers.

That was Unbelieving Israel.

They were the Israel that was not Israel - that was not the (desired) Israel of God.

They were "a gainsaying people."

But also within their nation were those who were faithful to the God of their fathers.

They were "a nation" within their nation: the Believing remnant of Israel.

They were the Israel that was...the (desired) Israel of God.

Both Israels (physical descendents of Jacob) are described in passages like the following...

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

10:21's "But to Israel he saith" is similar to Paul's intended sense in Romans 2:17's "Behold thou art called a Jew..."

In other words, it is a put down in the same manner as the following...

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Here are those two Israel's again...

Unbelieving Israel...

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Israel's Believing Remnant...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.